What Am I Doing Wrong Now????

Andysnap

Andysnap

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Andy Grant
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I decided to try out the Rollei Digibase for my colour developing and so far I haven't managed to get a single shot from 4 rolls of film developed correctly. Here's an example from the last roll, and the only one so far that has had anything at all on it.

Agfa Vista 400, Olympus XA2.
Test by andysnapper1, on Flickr

Not a camera problem as the 4 rolls have been from 3 different cameras and are 3 different films.

Here are my timings for developing, taken from the Rollei Digibase instructions

Pre-soak 2 to 3 mins
Colour Developer 3 mins 15 secs
Bleach 4 mins to 4 mins 20 secs
Fixer 4 mins 30 secs to 6 mins 20 secs
Stabiliser 1 min to 1 min 20 secs
Wash 3 mins to 4 mins

All of the above at 38 degrees C

Having just re-read the instructions the only thing I can see that I have done differently is I haven't used hot water to mix the developer, could that be the problem?


Cheers guys
 
So... how have you mixed your developer?.... did you let it get to 38 degrees?.
 
Just mixed it all up cold and then warmed it in the job to 38 degrees.
 
Andysnap said:
Just mixed it all up cold and then warmed it in the job to 38 degrees.
Click to expand...

Ok, well can't see that as being a problem....
Do you wash between bleach and fixer, as well as after fixer and between stabilizer?... (only going by what I've read)
 
Nope, only pre dev and after the stabiliser.
 
Ok...from what I read that a wash between bleach and fix is needed....
What about agitations, you trying continuous or intermittent?.
 
I'm not familiar with this product, so there's the disclaimer. All I know is what I've learned from this thread and a swift Google search.

The first warning light in my mind was the question about the mixing temperature. I know that with black and white developers, temperature of mixing can matter in that some developing agents won't dissolve below certain temperatures; and that order of adding the powders is also critical in that some components won't dissolve if others are already present. With that in mind, I had a quick search, and on the Firstcall site there's a pdf which states Note that the water temperature needs to be at 49°C for proper mixing of the chemicals. http://www.firstcall-photographic.co.uk/userfiles/file/developing_colour_film_with_rollei.pdf

I've no idea if this is the solution (pun intended).
 
Thanks for the replies folks, I think that I shall remix a batch of chems as described in the PDF and pop in a wash between bleach and fix.
I'm continuously agitating at the moment (could be ants in the pants:D) but I shall also try a bit of intermittent instead.

Cheers
Andy
 
I wash both before and after the fixer. It is really poor service that the official Digibase instructions miss out these steps despite there being several threads about it on internet forums.

However I'm not sure that would cause all of the problem and I think the mixing temperature is the most likely culprit.

Another thing to be careful about is accidental contamination of the developer by a drop of bleach. I think I did this once as I left the developer container open in the sink underneath the entry point for the Jobo lift, then poured in the bleach ... and I think a drop or three went in the open bottle. Mixing up the tops of the bottles is another potential source of contamination.
 
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Thanks Kev, I'm going to mix up a new batch of dev this evening following the instructions and also add the extra wash during the process. I'm getting some nice glass jars with kilner type tops so mixing the lids up will not be a problem but I will be sure to keep all the chems apart.

Andy
 
@ Andysnap keep us upto date with this Andy. I am in need of more c-41 chemistry and was going to try the rollei kit for a change from the tetenal but your problems are making me think better the devil you know and all that.....
 
@Asha

Will do mate. I'm going to give it another go tonight, so I'll update the thread after the resukts are in.

Andy
 
At least you've managed to get a great "day for night" style effect on the example above!
 
Ok, update. Nothing, nada, zip a complete and utter blank film, not a sausage and this area is renowned for its sausages.....

I re-mixed the chems and followed the instructions to the letter... Back to Tetenal for me.

Andy
 
Not even the frame numbers to indicate that some development had taken place? And I assume that the chemicals were applied in the correct sequence?

Better the devil you know, I suppose.
 
Andysnap said:
Ok, update. Nothing, nada, zip a complete and utter blank film, not a sausage and this area is renowned for its sausages.....

I re-mixed the chems and followed the instructions to the letter... Back to Tetenal for me.

Andy
Click to expand...


Thanks for coming back with the outcome Andy.....i'll stick with tetenal for now but nonetheless i'm very confused ( OK so it dunt take much before you lot say summat:D). People use thé rollei kit and have résults with, presumably, few probs so why so much grief for you?.......maybe you did something bad in a former life :eek::D:D:D
 
Doesn't make sense that you have nothing at all Andy?
I know when I had a completely blank roll with C41, I knew it was probably that the mix was about 7 months old, but a new mix sorted out the problem.
 
I must be doing something wrong somewhere as I didn't have a problem with any of the films I developed in the tetenal kit.
Oh well it doesn't matter its only a few films, nothing important.:rolleyes:
 
This is why I went for ready mix Digibase pouches. ;)

If you dip the leader into the Dev does it turn black? Think that's the easiest test to check the developer is functioning.
 
Have you considered the base chemicals might be buggered might even have happened in the factory.
 
srichards said:
This is why I went for ready mix Digibase pouches. ;)

If you dip the leader into the Dev does it turn black? Think that's the easiest test to check the developer is functioning.
Click to expand...

I shall try that Suz, it would certainly confirm that the dev is ok.

Kevin Allan said:
Andy

Just to confirm that the Digibase C41 kit does actually work, here are some results:

https://www.flickr.com/search/?q=digibase c41 kit&ss=0&ct=0&mt=all&w=33186310@N03&adv=1

I'd be happy to try processing one of your films for you if you want to mail it to me.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the offer Kev, I might take you up on it if I can't figure out where I'm going wrong.

Andy
 
Andy - I bought a Rollei kit a few weeks ago (haven't used it yet), and as the instructions for these things tend to be a little vague, I trawled through a load of forums and posts to gather together the consensus on the best process. This is what I noted down:

1. 10 minute DRY tank pre-heat
2. Dev @ 3:15
3. Don't use an acid stop and/or wash
4. Bleach (add 50% to the quoted time)
5. Wash - 4 changes @ 30s each
6. Fix (add 50% to the quoted time)
7. Wash - 4 changes @ 30s each, followed by 2 changes @ 1m each
8. Remove tank from processor and add stabilizer (very gentle agitation to prevent foaming)

If you're using a CPP or CPP2 type processor, some say use speed 3 or 4 for best results, but I've also seen the 'P' setting quoted.

The colour dev part of the chems has a shelf life of 2 to 3 years and should be yellow. It turns red when it's exhausted.
 
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Thanks J, that is very different to the admittedly vague instructions from Rollei.

When you say a 10 min dry tank pre heat, how does that work. I use a Jobo CPE and the tank when attached to the processor does not sit in the water.

I shall probably give this a go when I get the tank repaired. I managed to break off the magnet from the tank as well last night... that's what happens when I go all Hulk on stuff....
 
Seems strange that the instructions from rollei are vague.

It sounds like there isnt much différence in thé process to thé tetenal kit except thé seperate bleach and fix.

Thé dry preheat intriques me too......does this mean warm the tank by placing in warm warm water as against actually pouring warm water into thé tank ?
 
The tank should be loaded with film, attached to the Jobo, then rotated in the water bath @ 38 degrees for 10 minutes. No pre-soaking, just let the film and inside of the tank warm up dry.

Andy: why is your tank not sitting in any water when it's attached to the tank? Is something broken? The CPE bath should be filled with water at 38 degrees before you start the processing so everything stays at a stable temperature throughout.

Having read about a MILLION threads on C41 processing (may be a slight exaggeration, but close), it seems that temperature stability is a little more important than absolute temperature with colour processing. I.e. it's better to process at say, 37.5 degrees and keep it bang-on, than start at 38 and allow it to wander by a degree either side of your starting point. Kodak engineers, please confirm ;-) So the water bath is essential to keep everything stable.
 
Also, please read my first post: these are things that I have noted from a load of other threads, having tried to pull together the best practices of those who process lots of film with success. I haven't used the technique above even once! I'm still finishing my batch of Tetenal, so I have been pre-soaking/warming for 5 minutes before starting and use an acid stop after the dev stage.
 
FujiLove said:
I'm still finishing my batch of Tetenal, so I have been pre-soaking/warming for 5 minutes before starting and use an acid stop after the dev stage.
Click to expand...

Why do you use an acid stop after the dev stage??......I simply empty the tank of developer and replenish with Blix . Haven't had any issues but nonetheless would like to understand your reasons for adding a "stop" stage.
 
I'm also curious to know why you use an acid stop @FujiLove , I empty the tank of developer and do a 30sec wash before blix.
Seems we al do things differently lol.
 
FujiLove said:
The tank should be loaded with film, attached to the Jobo, then rotated in the water bath @ 38 degrees for 10 minutes. No pre-soaking, just let the film and inside of the tank warm up dry.

Andy: why is your tank not sitting in any water when it's attached to the tank? Is something broken? The CPE bath should be filled with water at 38 degrees before you start the processing so everything stays at a stable temperature throughout.

Having read about a MILLION threads on C41 processing (may be a slight exaggeration, but close), it seems that temperature stability is a little more important than absolute temperature with colour processing. I.e. it's better to process at say, 37.5 degrees and keep it bang-on, than start at 38 and allow it to wander by a degree either side of your starting point. Kodak engineers, please confirm ;-) So the water bath is essential to keep everything stable.
Click to expand...

Its not sitting in the water because I am a numpty and didn't realise that the tank needed to actually sit in the water.... :banghead: I've just been filling it up to just below the ledge where the tank sits, now you've said it it makes perfect sense otherwise there's no real point to the Jobo other than to warm the chemicals.....

Sometimes I am a ridiculous dimwit.......:hungover:

Right, back to the drawing board. I shall begin again following all the advice so far. I've also found a graph of times versus temperature which should help.
 
Andysnap said:
Its not sitting in the water because I am a numpty and didn't realise that the tank needed to actually sit in the water.... :banghead: I've just been filling it up to just below the ledge where the tank sits, now you've said it it makes perfect sense otherwise there's no real point to the Jobo other than to warm the chemicals.....

Sometimes I am a ridiculous dimwit.......:hungover:

Right, back to the drawing board. I shall begin again following all the advice so far. I've also found a graph of times versus temperature which should help.
Click to expand...

Well... if that solves things then it's all good (y)
 
I remixed the developer last night but I still used the original mix for the other chems so I shall remix those as well just to make sure. Just need to get the tank fixed now, I've spoken to my main works bodger and he says it should be easy enough so I should have it back in a day or two.
 
FujiLove said:
The tank should be loaded with film, attached to the Jobo, then rotated in the water bath @ 38 degrees for 10 minutes. No pre-soaking, just let the film and inside of the tank warm up dry.

Andy: why is your tank not sitting in any water when it's attached to the tank? Is something broken? The CPE bath should be filled with water at 38 degrees before you start the processing so everything stays at a stable temperature throughout.

Having read about a MILLION threads on C41 processing (may be a slight exaggeration, but close), it seems that temperature stability is a little more important than absolute temperature with colour processing. I.e. it's better to process at say, 37.5 degrees and keep it bang-on, than start at 38 and allow it to wander by a degree either side of your starting point. Kodak engineers, please confirm ;-) So the water bath is essential to keep everything stable.
Click to expand...


Just to add:- what's most important is consistency...whether you dev from 36-41c or the temp drifts each batch of film from 38 to 36c.....as you adjust the dev time. Also any problems and it's easier to find out what when wrong.
 
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Asha said:
Why do you use an acid stop after the dev stage??......I simply empty the tank of developer and replenish with Blix . Haven't had any issues but nonetheless would like to understand your reasons for adding a "stop" stage.
Click to expand...

I started using an acid stop after I ran into some issues with colour inconsistency. I.e. streaks and colour casts. I was advised on another forum to use a post dev stop bath so that the dev times were accurate. A water wash is okay, but the acetic acid will bring the development to a instant halt. I use glacial acetic acid (which I bought from eBay for about £8) diluted to around 1.0% to 1.5% (doesn't matter if you're not super-accurate). You need so little that it only adds about 5p to the cost per film, so you may as well give it a go if you are having issues.

Since using it, the colours have been better and I haven't had any streaking, BUT I changed a lot of other things at the same time, so I have no idea whether it has an effect. As noted above, others do not use a stop bath with the Rollei kit, so I'll probably try both when I get around to using those chems and see if there's a difference.
 
Andysnap said:
Its not sitting in the water because I am a numpty and didn't realise that the tank needed to actually sit in the water.... :banghead: I've just been filling it up to just below the ledge where the tank sits, now you've said it it makes perfect sense otherwise there's no real point to the Jobo other than to warm the chemicals.....

Sometimes I am a ridiculous dimwit.......:hungover:

Right, back to the drawing board. I shall begin again following all the advice so far. I've also found a graph of times versus temperature which should help.
Click to expand...

Now I'm really glad I asked you about that!

Without the water bath, I would imagine the temperature of the developer will have dropped to 34 degrees or lower (depending on the temperature in the room) by the time the 3m 15s has passed. That alone would explain why the film is under-developed.

Hoping that's problem solved for you.

BTW, if you don't manage to get your tank fixed, and you're anywhere near St Albans, give me a shout: My CPEs are sitting around unused (since the giant, kitchen-filling CPP2 arrived!) Happy to swap them for a few rolls of film...or a Mamiya 7ii...whatever ;)
 
Thanks for explaining about the acid stop @ FujiLove.

Occasionally i have had issues like you mention but i'm quite sure that colour cast has been due to temp variation and steaks have been a lack of agitation on my part due to being a bit lazy / slack with my process.

This isn't to say that you haven't good reason to use the acid stop method if it helps with yoiur results, however, for me, i would have to have consistent streaking or casts to warrant adding an additional stage.
 
FujiLove said:
Now I'm really glad I asked you about that!

Without the water bath, I would imagine the temperature of the developer will have dropped to 34 degrees or lower (depending on the temperature in the room) by the time the 3m 15s has passed. That alone would explain why the film is under-developed.

Hoping that's problem solved for you.

BTW, if you don't manage to get your tank fixed, and you're anywhere near St Albans, give me a shout: My CPEs are sitting around unused (since the giant, kitchen-filling CPP2 arrived!) Happy to swap them for a few rolls of film...or a Mamiya 7ii...whatever ;)
Click to expand...

Yes, it's obvious when its pointed out but at the time it just didn't click that the tank should sit in the bath... hey ho, every days a school day.
Thanks for the offer of the tank but I'm many leagues from St Albans in the deep, dark forests of the north. If at any point they were to appear in the classifieds though.... I might well be tempted;). The original is at the moment in the tool room at work having a repair and makeover, in theory it should come back better than it was, we shall see.

Cheers

Andy
 
A half decent electrician should be able to patch it up. My CPP went bang literally 30 minutes after getting it home. Turned out to be the thingamajig that cuts out the rotation motor when the knob is set to zero. Simple fix: just bypassed it with a bit of wire! Now the tank rotates at the slowest speed whenever the motor is on, but it makes absolutely no difference to the process as you keep the tank rotating anyway while the chemicals are added and drained (with the lift obviously). The guy that fixed mine also noted that the motors are very similar (exactly the same?) as car windscreen wiper motors. So if that blows I'll be off down to Halfords :)
 
Fortunately the actual processor works perfectly, it's just the tank that's knakered. The magnet that holds it in place sheared off from the tank so its quite an easy fix.

Andy
 
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