What Are Your Views on Arming All Police Officers?

R

Ricardodaforce

Self requested ban
Suspended / Banned
Messages
18,340
Edit My Images
No
In light of today’s events do you think it’s time to arm all police?
 
I think that it will inevitably happen, but it isn't something that I would personally welcome.. There have been a lot of occasions where unarmed and innocent people have been shot by police with no apparent justification, and this has involved their specialist firearms units who we're told are highly trained. My fear is that police officers who haven't been trained to the claimed level of the specialists are even more likely to make mistakes that turn out to be fatal to innocent members of the public.

And as for today's event, I'm not suggesting that the police weren't justified in killing the suspect but it does appear that he was taken down and dealt with by unarmed members of the public before the police arrived.
 
He was wearing a vest. Fake or not, I think I would be shooting first and asking questions later. Absolute bravery from everyone who tried to intervene. They are all heroes, both the public and the emergency services.

I’m just glad today’s latest idiot was dealt with firmly and quickly before he could do further harm.

Sadly people have died and others injured or in shock.

What I did take comfort from was the fact that so many people took it upon themselves without stopping to think about the potential consequences to themselves to assist.

I wasn’t that far away from the incident today, but was completely unaware of it until I was on the train heading back up north.
 
gremlin16 said:
He was wearing a vest. Fake or not, I think I would be shooting first and asking questions later. Absolute bravery from everyone who tried to intervene. They are all heroes, both the public and the emergency services.

I’m just glad today’s latest idiot was dealt with firmly and quickly before he could do further harm.

Sadly people have died and others injured or in shock.

What I did take comfort from was the fact that so many people took it upon themselves without stopping to think about the potential consequences to themselves to assist.

I wasn’t that far away from the incident today, but was completely unaware of it until I was on the train heading back up north.
Click to expand...
I agree that if he was wearing a vest, fake or not, then this may have been a good enough reason to kill him.

But none of us should forget that the police stated that Jean Charles de Menezes, who they shot dead at Stockwell Tube station, was wearing clothes that appeared to be covering up an explosive vest. That statement turned out to be untrue and he was entirely innocent, but just as dead as a real terrorist. . . I'm not suggesting that the man that they shot today was innocent, the two cases seem to be very different.
 
I'm sure the people who risked their lives today are grateful for your armchair support
Garry Edwards said:
I agree that if he was wearing a vest, fake or not, then this may have been a good enough reason to kill him.

But none of us should forget that the police stated that Jean Charles de Menezes, who they shot dead at Stockwell Tube station, was wearing clothes that appeared to be covering up an explosive vest. That statement turned out to be untrue and he was entirely innocent, but just as dead as a real terrorist. . . I'm not suggesting that the man that they shot today was innocent, the two cases seem to be very different.
Click to expand...
 
In some ways, yes they should be, let’s be honest normal law abiding citizens going about our daily business are very, very unlikely to ever see or know they are armed.

But it’s very unlikely to make any difference in these attacks, same as vehicle attacks before, just no way to stop it and I fear all police being armed will force the less undesirables among us to carry firearms as well and before long we’re the USA.

I do believe we need more armed units, properly trained and their sole purpose is to be armed response, so yes technically more armed police but holding the professional training, not just all.
 
No problem.

Garry has a long history of not liking certain elements of the police regarding firearms and I find it a disgrace that he can come on social media and start offering thinly veiled criticism of very brave people today.

The public involved did an awesome job as did the officers staring at an explosive device attached to a terrorist attacker.

This is not the time for cheap point scoring - to do so is an absolute disgrace

Mike
 
pooley said:
No problem.

Garry has a long history of not liking certain elements of the police regarding firearms and I find it a disgrace that he can come on social media and start offering thinly veiled criticism of very brave people today.

The public involved did an awesome job as did the officers staring at an explosive device attached to a terrorist attacker.

This is not the time for cheap point scoring - to do so is an absolute disgrace

Mike
Click to expand...
And also the brave officer(s) who shot JCM believing him to have bomb — the errors were further up the chain of command. It’s a difficult job and people may die if you get it wrong but the same applies to other jobs though it may be less obvious eg applying cladding to buildings ;).
 
I totally agree. JCM was an epic cock up at command level, not ground level despite the tragic outcome.

However, today's incident is totally different due to the spontaneity and everyone involved, police and even more so civilian, deserve huge thanks and praise
sphexx said:
And also the brave officer(s) who shot JCM believing him to have bomb — the errors were further up the chain of command. It’s a difficult job and people may die if you get it wrong but the same applies to other jobs though it may be less obvious eg applying cladding to buildings ;).
Click to expand...
 
pooley said:
Garry has a long history of not liking certain elements of the police regarding firearms
Click to expand...

True, but with good reason. And, as I have made clear in the past, I respect and support the vast majority of front line police officers, most of whom do a fantastic job. My problem is with senior police officers who seem to be more interested in building their personal empires, getting promotion and covering up the actions of their subordinates (when it suits them) than protecting the public and giving real support to their own officers.
pooley said:
and I find it a disgrace that he can come on social media and start offering thinly veiled criticism of very brave people today.
Click to expand...

And now Talk Photography is social media?

pooley said:
pooley said:
The public involved did an awesome job

Mike
Click to expand...
Agreed, and I haven't said otherwise. What I actually said was
Garry Edwards said:
And as for today's event, I'm not suggesting that the police weren't justified in killing the suspect but it does appear that he was taken down and dealt with by unarmed members of the public before the police arrived.
Click to expand...
It's obvious that members of the public did a great job.

pooley said:
as did the officers staring at an explosive device attached to a terrorist attacker.

Mike
Click to expand...
I've watched the news, the police have stated that he was wearing what appeared to be an explosive vest, which turned out to be fake. If he was, then I don't have a problem with their actions but, based on past incidents, I would like to see evidence that he actually did appear to be carrying explosives.

pooley said:
This is not the time for cheap point scoring - to do so is an absolute disgrace

Mike
Click to expand...

I agree, but then I would because I haven't indulged in cheap point scoring.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
Police are human, not everyone can cope with the outcome of a death they caused, however justifiable - consider the number of soldiers with PTSD. Arming all police isn't good for public safety or for the police, leave it to the specialists. A friend of mine, now retired, was on an armed response unit and he doesn't think it's a good idea either.
 
sirch said:
Police are human, not everyone can cope with the outcome of a death they caused, however justifiable - consider the number of soldiers with PTSD. Arming all police isn't good for public safety or for the police, leave it to the specialists. A friend of mine, now retired, was on an armed response unit and he doesn't think it's a good idea either.
Click to expand...

How do you think they manage to cope in Europe?
 
No
There are very, very few crimes committed in this country that require a police officer to be armed, and fewer in my part of the country...
 
Ricardodaforce said:
I just found it an interesting comment. So you believe that in Germany the fact that the police are armed is bad for them and bad for the German public?
Click to expand...
Does it help? How often does a German or Spanish or Greek officer discharge their weapon in anger? Firearms are extremely dangerous - it's their purpose after all - so the fewer dangerous things there are in the world the better IMHO.

I was really struck, going through immigration at JFK by the young immigration officer, not much older than my children sat at a desk with a big fat "side arm" hanging off their belt. What were they going to do with it, start shooting in a crowded airport terminal? What was the point?

I have also been suprised by the extremely casual way I have seen Greek police officers handling rifles around the public.
 
sirch said:
Does it help? How often does a German or Spanish or Greek officer discharge their weapon in anger? Firearms are extremely dangerous - it's their purpose after all - so the fewer dangerous things there are in the world the better IMHO.

I was really struck, going through immigration at JFK by the young immigration officer, not much older than my children sat at a desk with a big fat "side arm" hanging off their belt. What were they going to do with it, start shooting in a crowded airport terminal? What was the point?

I have also been suprised by the extremely casual way I have seen Greek police officers handling rifles around the public.
Click to expand...

I think it’s just what people are used to. After a while living abroad I never batted an eyelid at seeing armed police, or armed guards in the doors of jewellers or department stores.
 
What are the differences between German and British police, in recruitment, training, management, structure, pay, position in the legal structure, relations with the public, etc.

Any comparison would need to consider these factors, would they not?
 
simon ess said:
What are the differences between German and British police, in recruitment, training, management, structure, pay, position in the legal structure, relations with the public, etc.

Any comparison would need to consider these factors, would they not?
Click to expand...

Interesting question. I do think people forget that as a nation we are in the minority when it comes to arming the police, and that it is just seen as the norm elsewhere.
 
Ricardodaforce said:
I think it’s just what people are used to. After a while living abroad I never batted an eyelid at seeing armed police, or armed guards in the doors of jewellers or department stores.
Click to expand...

But why? it's like the gun lobby in the US saying the way to end shootings is for everyone to be armed. You hear shots in the next room, rush in, see someone holding a gun and dead bodies on the floor so you shoot them ... someone else hears the shot rushes into the room, sees you holding a gun and shoots you.
 
sirch said:
But why? it's like the gun lobby in the US saying the way to end shootings is for everyone to be armed. You hear shots in the next room, rush in, see someone holding a gun and dead bodies on the floor so you shoot them ... someone else hears the shot rushes into the room, sees you holding a gun and shoots you.
Click to expand...

I never saw anything like that. I think that’s just an irrational fear.
 
sirch said:
But why? it's like the gun lobby in the US saying the way to end shootings is for everyone to be armed. You hear shots in the next room, rush in, see someone holding a gun and dead bodies on the floor so you shoot them ... someone else hears the shot rushes into the room, sees you holding a gun and shoots you.
Click to expand...

SO why does that not happen in Germany and other countries with armed police?
 
Mr Badger said:
Conversely; so why do terrorist attacks still happen in Germany and other countries with armed police?
Click to expand...

Because its impossible to stop. Any one of us could go out to the local town centre with a kitchen knife or drive a car down a pavement and chances are there would be no police around
 
cambsno said:
Because its impossible to stop. Any one of us could go out to the local town centre with a kitchen knife or drive a car down a pavement and chances are there would be no police around
Click to expand...
Understood. So how would arming those police that aren't around help in that situation?
 
Last edited:
Ricardodaforce said:
In light of today’s events do you think it’s time to arm all police?
Click to expand...

There are already armed police in a few places (at least in London) and rightly so where they are needed.
I wouldn't arm the entirety in of the police force everywhere in the country. Don't think it will make anything better.
 
Mr Badger said:
Understood. So how would arming those police that aren't around help in that situation?
Click to expand...

Because chances are that an unarmed police officer (currently) would be closer to a situation, especially outside a major place like London so could deal with it quicker.
 
cambsno said:
Because chances are that an unarmed police officer (currently) would be closer to a situation, especially outside a major place like London so could deal with it quicker.
Click to expand...

I can see the way you're thinking, but how long do you think it takes to select and train a firearms officer to the stage where they can safely and efficiently deal with a terrorist incident in the middle of a busy town or city? At the moment, from what I understand, we appear to have specialist, intensively-trained, firearms units to deal with such incidents, and that makes me feel safe. Would I feel safe if every single police officer and probationary officer was carrying a gun? To be honest, no.

I speak from some limited personal experience here; I was once held at gunpoint by armed police (a case of mistaken identity and totally innocent but coincidental circumstance, and I didn’t blame the officers for their actions at all). Although I was standing alone with two Heckler and Koch sub-machine guns pointing at me through the open doors of a police car, I felt perfectly safe. The reason being? I knew how well those officers would have been trained to carry guns like that in the UK. I can still remember thinking ‘I hope one of them doesn’t pull the trigger, or they’re going to have some serious explaining to do!’… Funny how those thoughts stay with you!

At no time did I feel scared, despite the potential severity of the situation. Everyone remained perfectly calm and I did exactly as they instructed. My innocence was quickly established and we had a bit of a laugh and some banter about the situation afterwards. Now if that had been some basically trained, ashen-faced PC with a hand gun, I’d have probably needed a change of underwear, if I’d lived that long.
 
Last edited:
I don't see how it's needed, it took 5 minutes from the incident starting to him being shot dead by the armed police. Can't see that timeline being any shorter even if every officer was armed.
 
Mr Badger said:
I can see the way you're thinking, but how long do you think it takes to select and train a firearms officer to the stage where they can safely and efficiently deal with a terrorist incident in the middle of a busy town or city? At the moment, from what I understand, we appear to have specialist, intensively-trained, firearms units to deal with such incidents, and that makes me feel safe. Would I feel safe if every single police officer and probationary officer was carrying a gun? To be honest, no.

I speak from some limited personal experience here; I was once held at gunpoint by armed police (a case of mistaken identity and totally innocent but coincidental circumstance, and I didn’t blame the officers for their actions at all). Although I was standing alone with two Heckler and Koch sub-machine guns pointing at me through the open doors of a police car, I felt perfectly safe. The reason being? I knew how well those officers would have been trained to carry guns like that in the UK. I can still remember thinking ‘I hope one of them doesn’t pull the trigger, or they’re going to have some serious explaining to do!’… Funny how those thoughts stay with you!

At no time did I feel scared, despite the potential severity of the situation. Everyone remained perfectly calm and I did exactly as they instructed. My innocence was quickly established and we had a bit of a laugh and some banter about the situation afterwards. Now if that had been some basically trained, ashen-faced PC with a hand gun, I’d have probably needed a change of underwear, if I’d lived that long.
Click to expand...
What makes you think all police officers would just be handed a gun without proper training?
 
I've never met a copper who wanted this, even a couple who had received the training, served in a unit then left it because they couldn't stand the stress. Not only do they have to be able to make the decision to shoot, they also know that they must have a clear unequivocal justification for the use of every single bullet. So in an incident here, our coppers might discharge 3 to 8 bullets leading to a 6 month investigation and suspension; in France when they burst into flat held by terrorists, they discharged hundreds, being entirely focused on the task, not how to handle the aftermath. It's not much different to how our soldiers have been hounded through the courts for events that took place in a war zone in the past, but that hasn't happened in other countries where soldiers served in those same zones.
There is no simple answer to this but the evidence seems to suggest that on balance the UK has it right in this regard, although the senior officers should definitely support the front line officers very much better.
 
As yesterday’s attacker was seemingly disarmed by the public with a narwhal tusk and a fire extinguisher in the first instance why bother with fire arms....
 
Mozthecat said:
As yesterday’s attacker was seemingly disarmed by the public with a narwhal tusk and a fire extinguisher in the first instance why bother with fire arms....
Click to expand...
Probably because no one realised he was wearing a suicide vest. It turned out to be fake, but what if it had been real?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top