EU Immigrants to the UK add more to the economy than they take out

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neil_g said:
So if I reduce my overtime that'll mean an army of immigrants will take it over? Err no.
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To be fair that is what Tijuana was saying....as in no that will not happen.
 
NikonKev said:
I'm quite lucky that at my age i probably won't see the total ruin of this country under the weight of the EU !
I wonder how many Brits left the UK to skank off another EU country when we joined, I can't imagine Poland having a British immigrant problem :runaway:
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You'd realise there are around 2 million British immigrants in other EU countries? For example, Spain is overloaded by a huge influx of Brit pensioners. Those same Brit pensioners are now being cared for by the Spanish health system.

Comes the day we decide to pull out of the EU we get to send back a majority of healthy working age immigrants from other EU countries and in return we get back almost the same number of Brit pensioners back to clog up the NHS even more...
 
velonoir said:
I'm intrigued, how many of you have actually read the paper? It's here for anyone that is desperate to talk about it but actually never bothered to read it. http://www.cream-migration.org/files/FiscalEJ.pdf
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The thing is, people will never (hardly ever) read a 51 page report, and that includes me ;)
The man in the street will always re-act to what ever affects him, his family and possibly friends too.
This is "how" he see's it. No matter what any report says.
 
neil_g said:
No you didn't mention minimum wage thst was me.



I think that's more down to the lack of new gps personally. Funnily enough we're after doctors from the eu to fill the gaps..



No offence to your friend but relying on overtime as a regular source of income is quite foolish.
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If you are on low wage unless you work overtime you have the same issue as Scotland mentioned ie food banks

EU filling gaps with GPS is that because we have had so many new residents who do not speak English that the foreign doctors are needed to understand them

It's easy if you have earning power that 39 hours will pay you rent mortgage buy food energy and transport into work if you are not so lucky you may well be fed up with the situation maybe like the Scottish yes camp who felt Westminster was not doing the job

Of course the friend I refer to does pay tax does not have a spare bedroom inyet part of his tax goes towards housing credit for those who do have a spare room bet he would sooner have money for food
 
Damn I was late to this party. Then again I was working hard and late as an immigrant contributing my 25% of total contributions to this country without the right to vote.
 
dejongj said:
Damn I was late to this party. Then again I was working hard and late as an immigrant contributing my 25% of total contributions to this country without the right to vote.
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Make no mistake you are welcome here by me I would never suggest some kind of reprateration of those here now what does concern me is that the numbers must slow down while the schools hospitals roads catch up

Don't feel to bad about no right to vote many who have the vote are so disillusioned by Westminster they don't bother anyway.

I watched pmqs today and Ed Milliband referring that business want to remain in the EU that's good he is at least interested in business in some ways but is it not his duty as PM in waiting to consider the electorate as well

Least we are not alone in our dislike of politics the USA had poor turnout as well
 
border_all said:
Don't feel to bad about no right to vote many who have the vote are so disillusioned by Westminster they don't bother anyway.
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Very true.
We should be allowed to vote none of the above ;)
(Brewsters millions anyone? ;) )
 
Nikon_Nick said:
As opposed to the implied racism in your previous post/s?
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careful nick he'll instruct council (or possibly even counsel) if you suggest that he's a racist , for posting things that might be read as implicitly racist
 
dejongj said:
Damn I was late to this party. Then again I was working hard and late as an immigrant contributing my 25% of total contributions to this country without the right to vote.
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genuine question - do you retain the right to vote wherever you are from ? (asuming of course that you come from a democratic state and not dneipner republic or something), do british expats still have a vote in uk ellections ?
 
big soft moose said:
genuine question - do you retain the right to vote wherever you are from ? (asuming of course that you come from a democratic state and not dneipner republic or something), do british expats still have a vote in uk ellections ?
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I assumed not, I haven't voted in the 5 years or so since I emigrated, but on reading up, it appears you can vote for up to 15 years after emigrating! Pretty strange if you ask me. I voted in the local elections here in Germany a couple of months after arriving...Hong Kong...well, not much voting going on there :)

On the topic of immigration, those people that like to froth themself up in outrage at how the UK is this and that, really need to get out and experience life in different parts of the world. Countries that do have second and third class citizens, capital/corporal punishment, outrageously expensive/exclusive healthcare, endemic racism, real poverty etc.
 
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I still voted whilst living in the US.
Only once though as I wasn't there that long :)
 
big soft moose said:
genuine question - do you retain the right to vote wherever you are from ? (asuming of course that you come from a democratic state and not dneipner republic or something), do british expats still have a vote in uk ellections ?
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No I don't as I don't reside there. Residency is what counts in my home country not citizenship.

I under it to be different in the UK and that it is linked to citizenship instead.

It's a shame since the funding that anyone contributes comes via the residency status and is not linked to citizenship.
 
Cobra said:
Not confusing them at all.
There are apparently (!) 100000 legals according to the data above. (!)
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No, there's 2.3 million immigrants from the EU. BUT 2.2 million people from the UK have gone to live in the EU. You know. Using the exact same freedom of movement laws that we seem to hate so much.

So the net impact economically to the UK is we've got an extra 100,000 EU citizens and that's what I'm saying isn't a big deal.

Nothing to do with illegal immigrants where I agree our govt are appalling at keeping track of.

I was thinking about this last night. I dunno about you guys but I personally know of two British families who have gone to other EU countries to work. One went to Germany, the other to Sweden. Both found better jobs out there so went. Is that wrong? Would we be so sympathetic to the Swedes holding up placards announcing "Sweden First!"?

We notice EU immigrants much more because they typically arrive with poor English and very different culture. We don't notice when Mr & Mrs Smith down the road have moved to Germany.

My whole point is that economically we've done well out of EU immigration and the whole "They've come to steal our jobs" argument is utterly flawed because it seems like 2.2 million Brits have stolen their jobs!
 
gadgeteer said:
My whole point is that economically we've done well out of EU immigration and the whole "They've come to steal our jobs" argument is utterly flawed because it seems like 2.2 million Brits have stolen their jobs!
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I bet a large percent of that 2.2 million departing is retirement related so no jobs under threat as such
 
mid_gen said:
I assumed not, I haven't voted in the 5 years or so since I emigrated, but on reading up, it appears you can vote for up to 15 years after emigrating! Pretty strange if you ask me. I voted in the local elections here in Germany a couple of months after arriving...Hong Kong...well, not much voting going on there :)

On the topic of immigration, those people that like to froth themself up in outrage at how the UK is this and that, really need to get out and experience life in different parts of the world. Countries that do have second and third class citizens, capital/corporal punishment, outrageously expensive/exclusive healthcare, endemic racism, real poverty etc.
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the last paragraph is bang on right, well said.
 
mid_gen said:
On the topic of immigration, those people that like to froth themself up in outrage at how the UK is this and that, really need to get out and experience life in different parts of the world. Countries that do have second and third class citizens, capital/corporal punishment, outrageously expensive/exclusive healthcare, endemic racism, real poverty etc.
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So broadening the brush slightly your saying don't knock drugs till you've tried them then you'll see what drug addicts have to endure ! :banghead:
 
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No it means you might change your mind about how "bad" things are in the UK when you look at how things are in other countries. Thanks to my day job I've been to many countries. I even worked in the US for a while when I was younger. Had the opportunity to stay there too. Despite many thing I love about the US I chose to come back to the UK because whilst I'd get paid a lot more over there, the quality of life I thought was better here.

But after you see people literally queuing up for jobs, working long long hours and barely seeing their own family for very little pay. What happens is that you start to appreciate even more that the UK isn't such a bad place after all and in fact, it's actually quite good!
 
gadgeteer said:
No it means you might change your mind about how "bad" things are in the UK when you look at how things are in other countries. Thanks to my day job I've been to many countries. I even worked in the US for a while when I was younger. Had the opportunity to stay there too. Despite many thing I love about the US I chose to come back to the UK because whilst I'd get paid a lot more over there, the quality of life I thought was better here.

But after you see people literally queuing up for jobs, working long long hours and barely seeing their own family for very little pay. What happens is that you start to appreciate even more that the UK isn't such a bad place after all and in fact, it's actually quite good!
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Whilst I agree that that it is a wonderful place here, it shouldn't stop us to strive and become even better. Just because it is worse elsewhere doesn't mean we sit on our laurels.
 
gadgeteer said:
What happens is that you start to appreciate even more that the UK isn't such a bad place after all and in fact, it's actually quite good!
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I agree the UK is a nice place to live, and I assume that's why so many people flock here.
We are only a small-ish Island and our resources are being stretched for what ever reason,
There comes a point when some form of control that actually works needs to be implemented
before the scenario's you also mention above become reality here.
I see nothing wrong in trying look after and protect what we have. (or maybe that should be had?)

dejongj said:
Whilst I agree that that it is a wonderful place here, it shouldn't stop us to strive and become even better. Just because it is worse elsewhere doesn't mean we sit on our laurels.
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Yep (y)
 
I guess the difference in opinion is how do we look after and protect what we have.

Do we:

a) Pull up the drawbridge one way because we don't like Johnny Foreigner with his funny sounding degree take a job in good old blighty (But I assume it's OK for Johnny English to go take a job in France right?)
b) Continue to be part of the EU where economically it is proven time & time again that the benefits far outweigh costs?

The simple fact of the matter is that our native population is getting older. No-one disputes that. So if we want the govt of tomorrow to be able to pay our pensions then we do need MORE immigration of younger educated people to get jobs and pay taxes. Otherwise the numbers just don't stack up.
 
dejongj said:
Whilst I agree that that it is a wonderful place here, it shouldn't stop us to strive and become even better. Just because it is worse elsewhere doesn't mean we sit on our laurels.
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Thats why people come miles here to seek asylum, will stop at nothing to get here (illegally). For a self starter (like yourself) the UK is a land of oppertunity etc and I am all for enterprise and hard work, but there comes a point where we simply cannot cope. Our population is getting bigger, our land space no bigger and there's a huge glut of people that do come here that do nothing over than claim benefits.
 
gadgeteer said:
The simple fact of the matter is that our native population is getting older. No-one disputes that. So if we want the govt of tomorrow to be able to pay our pensions then we do need MORE immigration of younger educated people to get jobs and pay taxes. Otherwise the numbers just don't stack up.
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We need our own young people to get jobs and pay taxes, that's the real trick. Modern apprentice programs, decent schooling means plenty of young British people are fit to work and take us through the next 50 years or so
 
No one is saying pull up the drawbridge
its all about control.
The population is expanding rapidly, and as you said people in the UK are living longer
there will come a point if current trend continues, that we will reach saturation point.
And the country will be poorer for it.

And to reiterate the point I made earlier
Cobra said:
The man in the street will always re-act to what ever affects him, his family and possibly friends too.
This is "how" he see's it. No matter what any report says.
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Cobra said:
The population is expanding rapidly...
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ST4 said:
Our population is getting bigger, our land space no bigger and there's a huge glut of people that do come here that do nothing over than claim benefits.
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But that's pretty much my whole point here. If we're talking about immigration from the EU then the facts don't back up those statements. Our overall population isn't expanding rapidly. More a tiny overall increase because nearly as many UK people have also decided to move out that are coming in.

And there's not a huge glut of people that come over and claim benefits at all. That's such a myth peddled by the Daily Mail & UKIP. Contrary to popular belief you can't just rock up in the UK from Poland and be given a house and unemployment benefits. You get nothing until you find a job at which point you get the same in work benefits as everyone else (which to me sounds fair).

Immigrants are also statistically less likely to claim benefits than locals.

So I'm coming back to the same points.

  1. Leaving the EU doesn't do anything to stop illegal immigration
  2. EU immigration isn't anywhere near as bad once you factor in how many brits have also moved out
  3. (Legal) immigrants are far less likely to claim benefits and can't do so anyway until they're habitually resident
 
gadgeteer said:
  1. Leaving the EU doesn't do anything to stop illegal immigration
  2. EU immigration isn't anywhere near as bad once you factor in how many brits have also moved out
  3. (Legal) immigrants are far less likely to claim benefits and can't do so anyway until they're habitually resident
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1. It will. We can use more drastic measures currently deemed illegal by the EU to deal with illegal immigrants
2. We can reduce the number of EU migrants coming in. It will help get our own into work
3. Maybe, but we can fill vacancies with British unemployed people
4. The £1.7billion, we do not need to give the EU money of ours. Its the principle, British taxes should stay in Britain.
 
ST4 said:
Thats why people come miles here to seek asylum, will stop at nothing to get here (illegally). For a self starter (like yourself) the UK is a land of oppertunity etc and I am all for enterprise and hard work, but there comes a point where we simply cannot cope. Our population is getting bigger, our land space no bigger and there's a huge glut of people that do come here that do nothing over than claim benefits.
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Two things;
- Asylum seekers have every right and are subject to an investigation. I think the rules can be tightened further as it is open for abuse and the processing takes too long. But in principle it is fine. I firmly believe we need to help people who require help.
- Illegal immigrants are exactly as it says on the tin. They are illegal. They shouldn't be here, but you can't 100% stop the attempts. Points is that they are illegals and the law will deal with those.

Sure population gets bigger but it isn't that busy here in my opinion. The points system to drive immigration control is great. And freedom of movement around Europe is also great. I think the issue is more that of equality between eu member states and I think the growth that the eu has had in member states is the cause of the perceived issues opposed to the migrants themselves. Quite a few of them should never have been allowed to be members.
 
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I agree there are states in the EU that shouldn;'t be members. We voted to be apart of a free trade agreement with a few other western prosperous countries, not places like Bulgaria and Romania. Its why I beleive we need to have a vote on the matter to see if its something we as British people still want. Its not something I want, not now. Free trade is great, free borders, not so good but not terrible if you are dealing with the original founding countries.

Asylum is not a bad thing, but its designed to help those in dire need for fear of their lives. Why travel half way around the world almost to seek asylum if you can seek it closer to home. Its for economic factors, not pure political fear, and thats why we need to toughen up on this. I'd understand the logitics of a French, Irish, Swedish person seeking asylum here, as its close and safe, but not the present lot of seekers we get
 
gadgeteer said:
I guess the difference in opinion is how do we look after and protect what we have.

Do we:

a) Pull up the drawbridge one way because we don't like Johnny Foreigner with his funny sounding degree take a job in good old blighty (But I assume it's OK for Johnny English to go take a job in France right?)
b) Continue to be part of the EU where economically it is proven time & time again that the benefits far outweigh costs?

The simple fact of the matter is that our native population is getting older. No-one disputes that. So if we want the govt of tomorrow to be able to pay our pensions then we do need MORE immigration of younger educated people to get jobs and pay taxes. Otherwise the numbers just don't stack up.
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Or

C) leave the eu but have freedom to work and trade agreements in place.

Cobra is right. We are one of the most populated countries in Europe. At some point we will have to say no.
 
ST4 said:
I'd understand the logitics of a French, Irish, Swedish person seeking asylum here, .....
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Ah yes, those well know cesspits of starvation, tyrannical oppression, and genocide. :rolleyes:
 
gadgeteer said:
That's such a myth peddled by the Daily Mail & UKIP.
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What I find curious is,
I've never read the daily mail in my life,
(nor another newspaper in many years)
I have no political allegiance to any party whatsoever.
I wouldn't trust a single politician any further than I could throw them.

And yet when any of these types of discussions occur
someone will always attack the Daily mail and / or UKIP
The old adage of attack is the best for of defence often rings true in many of life's situations.

So without knowing anything of the Daily Mail
and very little about UKIP.
I'm beginning to wonder how much they print (Mail) What ever that is.
and how many of their policies (UKIP) are actually accurate?
 
Do you have some evidence to back up your assertion that immigrants are taking work away from British citizens? It is an oft thrown about phrase by some people and I'm interested to know where it comes from.

A
Cobra said:
What I find curious is,
I've never read the daily mail in my life,
(nor another newspaper in many years)
I have no political allegiance to any party whatsoever.
I wouldn't trust a single politician any further than I could throw them.

And yet when any of these types of discussions occur
someone will always attack the Daily mail and / or UKIP
The old adage of attack is the best for of defence often rings true in many of life's situations.

So without knowing anything of the Daily Mail
and very little about UKIP.
I'm beginning to wonder how much they print (Mail) What ever that is.
and how many of their policies (UKIP) are actually accurate?
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Educate yourself :

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Daily_Mail
 
ST4 said:
1. It will. We can use more drastic measures currently deemed illegal by the EU to deal with illegal immigrants
2. We can reduce the number of EU migrants coming in. It will help get our own into work
3. Maybe, but we can fill vacancies with British unemployed people
4. The £1.7billion, we do not need to give the EU money of ours. Its the principle, British taxes should stay in Britain.
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I'll add if i may number
5. How many Brits have left becuase Immigrants have arrived ??
 
velonoir said:
I'm intrigued, how many of you have actually read the paper? It's here for anyone that is desperate to talk about it but actually never bothered to read it. http://www.cream-migration.org/files/FiscalEJ.pdf
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The rebuttals:

http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/briefing-paper/1.37

http://www.civitas.org.uk/pdf/rowthorndustmannfrattini.pdf

I'd prefer the UK being able to control who comes in to the country from within the EU depending on what skills they can bring and having a job offer etc. If there was ever a national shortage of people who could push a broom about then we could relax the criteria to enter and I don't think we'd be short of offers. If that meant leaving the EU then so be it.
 
ST4 said:
A very valid point. I am considering leaving because of the way this country is heading. Just got to find a place thats willing to have me....States seem a good fit.
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I hope you dont expect to be given a job over there.
 
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