Panorama - Apple's broken promises

It can't be denied that since the first iPod in 2001 Apple have through intelligent innovation, manufacture and marketing, created precisely the right product at the right time. That's why they are the most profitable company of modern times if not ever. They have led where others have followed and Apple have been extraordinarily and spectacularly successful.

To get back on topic, that's why I think Apple need to do more. They have said they would and they can very easily afford it and despite the flaws of the Panorama programme, they should feel ashamed.
 
Cartus said:
It can't be denied that since the first iPod in 2001 Apple have through intelligent innovation, manufacture and marketing, created precisely the right product at the right time. That's why they are the most profitable company of modern times if not ever. They have led where others have followed and Apple have been extraordinarily and spectacularly successful.

To get back on topic, that's why I think Apple need to do more. They have said they would and they can very easily afford it and despite the flaws of the Panorama programme, they should feel ashamed.
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The most profitable company? One of maybe. I think you'll find several banks, energy (oil companies) and Microsoft give them a run for that title.
 
I wonder how many people have ever bought an Apple product based on their claimed ethical manufacturing standards.

I'm thinking zero.
 
viv1969 said:
I wonder how many people have ever bought an Apple product based on their claimed ethical manufacturing standards.

I'm thinking zero.
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Very good point well made (y)

Can't say it was ever part of the decision making process, and definitely not one for a comparison to other products that maybe available.
 
There's very little reason to lock yourself into expensive contracts or blow 600GBP+ on flagship phones. Smartphones matured ~3 years ago, as mentioned, the latest round of budget android/windows phones are functionally just as good as the top-end ones. 2015 will be the year that premium smartphone manufacturers go bust or pull out of the market, starting with Sony.
 
Why just pick on Apple? What about Nike?
Apple probably do put some effort in to better working conditions. Nike don't.
I'm sure you will find many many companies in the far east doing this or worse!
Look how sulphur is collected in Africa.
Look at child labour making clothes in India.
Look at oil companies in the DRC.
We are to blame because we don't really care where our stuff comes from as long as we don't know & its cheap.
 
mid_gen said:
There's very little reason to lock yourself into expensive contracts or blow 600GBP+ on flagship phones. Smartphones matured ~3 years ago, as mentioned, the latest round of budget android/windows phones are functionally just as good as the top-end ones. 2015 will be the year that premium smartphone manufacturers go bust or pull out of the market, starting with Sony.
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Does your logic also apply to Rolls Royce cars? Or Breitling watches?
 
mid_gen said:
A Rolls Royce or Breitling doesn't run out of OS support and become an expensive paperweight in 3-4 years.
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My original iPhone from 2007 still works just fine. Not sure what the point is?
 
mid_gen said:
There's very little reason to lock yourself into expensive contracts or blow 600GBP+ on flagship phones. Smartphones matured ~3 years ago, as mentioned,
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Really? Could you list the smartphones available 3 years ago that were 4G capable? VoLTE capable? Wifi calling capable? I could list a few other advancements still in their infancy, but let's start with those 3.
 
I didn't bother to watch the programme, but I have bothered to walk around a lot of Chinese factories.

Now, leaving aside the inconvenient fact that Apple simply contracts out its manufacturing and isn't directly responsible for the working conditions, pay or anything else, the simple fact of the matter is that virtually all of the factory workers are migrants - they live hundreds or thousands of miles away and travel to Shenzen so that they can earn what is, for them, a small fortune.
They work 6 1/2 days a week for 11 months, then at Chinese new year they go back home to spend a few days with their families - most of that 1 month break has to be spent travelling.
Pay rates are going up dramatically and constantly (which is now making China uncompetitive) and the workers will leave and move on if they don't get at least 14 hours per day, it is the workers who insist on working long hours, not the employers.
Many sleep on the factory floor, many sleep in concrete dorms provided by the employer, what hardly any do is to choose to have decent living conditions because that would cost them money.
It's just the way it is with Chinese factories staffed by migrant workers - we see it as exploitation, they see it as an opportunity to become rich by their standards, 2 or 3 years of hard work will set them up for life
 
dejongj said:
My original iPhone from 2007 still works just fine. Not sure what the point is?
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Dave1 said:
Really? Could you list the smartphones available 3 years ago that were 4G capable? VoLTE capable? Wifi calling capable? I could list a few other advancements still in their infancy, but let's start with those 3.
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Two very contrary reponses! An original iphone does not stand up to comparison with a modern smartphone. It has barely any data connectivity, an insecure, unsupported OS, it won't run many (most?) current apps, and has a dead battery (although that can be fixed). I don't consider internet connected appliances that go out of support fit for purpose, they aren't safe to use.

4G, VoLTE, Wifi Calling....none of these provide any practical benefit. My only internet connection was my tethered phone for several months this year....tried 3G and 4G...really no practical difference, I just stick with 3G now to extend battery life. VoLTE? Nice buzzword, makes no difference to a user. Wifi calling? Err yeah VOIP is hardly new.
 
mid_gen said:
Two very contrary reponses! An original iphone does not stand up to comparison with a modern smartphone. It has barely any data connectivity, an insecure, unsupported OS, it won't run many (most?) current apps, and has a dead battery (although that can be fixed). I don't consider internet connected appliances that go out of support fit for purpose, they aren't safe to use.

4G, VoLTE, Wifi Calling....none of these provide any practical benefit. My only internet connection was my tethered phone for several months this year....tried 3G and 4G...really no practical difference, I just stick with 3G now to extend battery life. VoLTE? Nice buzzword, makes no difference to a user. Wifi calling? Err yeah VOIP is hardly new.
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Are they prone to exploding? When the provider announces that they are no longer supporting an OS, does it suddenly become unstable?
 
mid_gen said:
Two very contrary reponses! An original iphone does not stand up to comparison with a modern smartphone. It has barely any data connectivity, an insecure, unsupported OS, it won't run many (most?) current apps, and has a dead battery (although that can be fixed). I don't consider internet connected appliances that go out of support fit for purpose, they aren't safe to use.

4G, VoLTE, Wifi Calling....none of these provide any practical benefit. My only internet connection was my tethered phone for several months this year....tried 3G and 4G...really no practical difference, I just stick with 3G now to extend battery life. VoLTE? Nice buzzword, makes no difference to a user. Wifi calling? Err yeah VOIP is hardly new.
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I don't think they are contrary. One is highlighting that something doesn't just not work any more in the context of what I responded to. And no it didn't have barely any data connectivity it had sufficient, still does gsm and wifi and html5. It wasn't insecure then and I would love for you to out your money where your mouth is and highlight how it is insecure today?

The other comment was in relation to the distinction between buying new and current phones. Neatly highlighting a number of advances that have been made. And the reason why I am on the latest iteration opposed to my still working first iteration.

VoIP is not wifi calling, neither is volte. Both are actually superb technologies that will allow me to move away from my current and only possible provider. Many people in not such well supported area will love it even if they don't understand what it is and will bring to them.
 
dejongj said:
VoIP is not wifi calling, neither is volte. Both are actually superb technologies that will allow me to move away from my current and only possible provider. Many people in not such well supported area will love it even if they don't understand what it is and will bring to them.
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Fair enough, I'd forgotten about patchy mobile networks, has the UK still not sorted this out?

Besides....as a reason up get the latest smartphone, none of these is a great one to call out, as they aren't available on UK networks yet.
 
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Cool like that. Not bad only 142 recorded issues. Vast majority requiring physical access or a crafted application with a few WebKit related ones.

Not bad at all. I wouldn't be concerned about that.
 
mid_gen said:
Fair enough, I'd forgotten about patchy mobile networks, has the UK still not sorted this out? Besides, wifi calling isn't supported yet, so not a great reason for an upgrade really. Seems to me VoIP is the better solution at the moment!
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No it is still not sorted. VoIP isn't the better solution unless it was able to make/receive call with the mobile number. I use a local femtocell which works and is stable and seamless.
 
mid_gen said:
4G, VoLTE, Wifi Calling....none of these provide any practical benefit. My only internet connection was my tethered phone for several months this year....tried 3G and 4G...really no practical difference, I just stick with 3G now to extend battery life. VoLTE? Nice buzzword, makes no difference to a user. Wifi calling? Err yeah VOIP is hardly new.
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I gather you don't really understand the technologies then?

Wifi calling isn't VOIP, it's integrated into the OS of the handset and will seamlessly route calls either over cellular or via any wifi network it can access. It means the chances of a building or lack of mobile signal causing calls and texts to drop or be unavailable to disappear if a wifi network is present. The user won't have to do anything, the handset will essentially be dual mode, and will route calls and texts by the strongest method.

VoLTE won't make any difference? Really? You do realise that at present the 4G signal cannot carry calls or texts? Yet the 800MHz frequency that 4G will be using has far better propagation and penetration of the signal, when 800MHz is in greater use (next year) a non-VoLTE handset could end up showing a signal, able to use data but not be able to make or receive calls or texts.

A difference between 3G and 4G not being noticeable? Again, really? Are you sure you had a 4G capable phone and 4G coverage? Latency and upload speeds are significantly improved on all networks, download is also significantly improved on fully integrated systems (but even markedly improved even in test or roll out stage), even the very best 3G will struggle to reach 20-30Mbps, with the average around 5-10Mbps, 4G will currently attain 100-150Mbps with the average on a mature network of 50-70Mbps, the top speed is going to reach 300Mbps within the next 6 months (or less) as LTE-A is already rolling out.

Your ignorance of the technological advances doesn't make your "smartphones matured 3 years ago" statement any more relevant or correct when the real facts are seen. In fact, some of the advances are happening so fast that even a 12 month old handset is being left behind with regard to new features appearing.
 
mid_gen said:
Fair enough, I'd forgotten about patchy mobile networks, has the UK still not sorted this out?

Besides....as a reason up get the latest smartphone, none of these is a great one to call out, as they aren't available on UK networks yet.
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http://ee.co.uk/ee-and-me/network/wifi-calling

Was supposed to launch late November, current estimate is will be launched in the next 2-4 weeks. It's already in use by some large corporate clients. The delay was for PR and advertising AIUI, not technical reasons.

Current estimate is that VoLTE will be implemented within 6 months.
 
dejongj said:
Cool like that. Not bad only 142 recorded issues. Vast majority requiring physical access or a crafted application with a few WebKit related ones.

Not bad at all. I wouldn't be concerned about that.
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Each to their own, I don't like to run unsupported internet connected software with known vulnerabilities, seen enough mess caused by it in my time to not want to clear it up.

Regarding 3G/4G speeds. I was using a Lumia 920 on 4G, it was plenty fast for downloading large files and streaming video. That's been replaced with an iPhone 5 that cost peanuts and is HSDPA+ only. It is still plenty fast for streaming videos and downloading large files. I'm an IT professional, I use my hardware on the road, I see no practical benefit from 4G.

Ditto Wifi Calling, VoLTE, these offer zero benefit to me (zero benefit to anyone at the moment). If those acronyms are enough for you to justify purchasing the latest flagship phones, good luck to you! I recently had the choice of buying a new phone or a cheap older model and could see no practical benefit to paying upwards of a 400 GBP premium for the latest. YMMV.
 
mid_gen said:
Each to their own, I don't like to run unsupported internet connected software with known vulnerabilities, seen enough mess caused by it in my time to not want to clear it up.

Regarding 3G/4G speeds. I was using a Lumia 920 on 4G, it was plenty fast for downloading large files and streaming video. That's been replaced with an iPhone 5 that cost peanuts and is HSDPA+ only. It is still plenty fast for streaming videos and downloading large files. I'm an IT professional, I use my hardware on the road, I see no practical benefit from 4G.

Ditto Wifi Calling, VoLTE, these offer zero benefit to me (zero benefit to anyone at the moment). If those acronyms are enough for you to justify purchasing the latest flagship phones, good luck to you! I recently had the choice of buying a new phone or a cheap older model and could see no practical benefit to paying upwards of a 400 GBP premium for the latest. YMMV.
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Odd I thought for certain how they provide incredible benefit to me. At the moment only Vodafone provides a reliable femtocell solution in areas with little to no network coverage. Wifi calling as EE was planning to roll out could provide me with an alternative provider this increasing my choice by 100%. That is a huge benefit. Considering it wasn't available when my contract was up for renewal and now three months later still not highlights I've made the right decision to stay with Vodafone. Perhaps if the is finally launched and stable then next year I could review moving my business to another provider. As I said before, a massive benefit.
 
Oh and don't jailbreak your old phone and add a pin with fingerprint and the fast majority of the vulnerabilities are impossible to ever happen.
 
All the evidence points to the fact that this thread is now way off topic.
 
Not a bad thing ;)
 
Dave1 said:
The John Lewis penguin (retailing at £95 each) is made in a Far East sweatshop that pays its staff 40p per hour.
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[pedantic] retail between £14 and £95 [/pedantic]

but i guess that doesnt make as sensational headline.

i see your point but a source other than the Sun that you have to pay for would be nice :)
 
it also depends on what 40p is worth in real terms in that far eastern economy - it may be that it goes as far as min wage does here. (also i doubt the far eastern supplier gets much of the price wholesale)
 
neil_g said:
[pedantic] retail between £14 and £95 [/pedantic]

but i guess that doesnt make as sensational headline.

i see your point but a source other than the Sun that you have to pay for would be nice :)
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I saw the full story in the Sun newspaper today (read it in an office, not mine, so I don't have anymore to add), it was listed as an exclusive, I presume others will follow. I doubt a half page spread with photos would have got past the lawyers if there wasn't even some truth to the story.

40p per hour, if the worker worked12 hours a day, 6 days a week it would give the worker a wage of under £130 a month, that's pretty disgraceful, especially for a retailer like John Lewis.
 
As Pete pointed out (and others have done the same before him), £130 per month might be a pretty good wage there. Seems low to us but may not be in local terms.
 
Nod said:
As Pete pointed out (and others have done the same before him), £130 per month might be a pretty good wage there. Seems low to us but may not be in local terms.
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Other than the fact many castigate companies like Foxconn who pay around £450 a month. I suppose when it's not Apple it's not as much of an issue ;).
 
Dave1 said:
. I suppose when it's not Apple it's not as much of an issue ;).
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thats because apple made a big song and dance about how great they were being whiter than white , and then got caught in a stupid lie

Also the question ref Foxconn is where do they pay £450 - in some FE economies thats nothing , in others its a living wage, and in still others its loads - its difficult to compare one with another unless they are paying it in the same country
 
neil_g said:
indeed.

worker conditions ultimately wont stop me buying something, it might make me pause and think about it. but apples supposed fair worker policy makes it very hypocritical. thats what most people are getting at.
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Did you even bother to read Elliot's link before continuing with your Apple attack?

From the link:
A leading non-governmental organisation (NGO) focused on ensuring fair, safe and legal labour has praised Apple's dedication to changing working conditions within its Chinese factories.

The comments come days after Apple chief executive Tim Cook was said to be "deeply offended" over allegations made by the BBC's Panorama programme that the company mistreats its workers within its supply chains.

Dan Viederman, executive director of Verité, an organisation dedicated to to ensuring that people worldwide work under safe, fair and legal working conditions by monitoring labour standards, said the issues raised by the footage were part of a wider problem within the industry.

"These are problems that every company sourcing in China faces - they are not unique to Apple. From our experience Apple has done more strategically to address the issues than most tech companies," he said.

"On both those counts, Apple has done more than most other, if not all other, tech companies. Which isn't to say they're perfect, or would be denying these problems still exist - in fact I think Apple has been fairly transparent about the fact these problems still exist."
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But I suppose it also doesn't suit your agenda?
 
Wind it in please. Like I said I really don't care enough for it to affect my purchasing decisions. I certainly don't have an agenda.

And no I didn't read the link, I was referring to what Pete posted.
 
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