At last London is taking dirty diesel seriously

While it is true the grid is currently not equipped to deal with everyone switching to EV, but EV is also the solution to this problem.
I'd agree if we had more renewable energy sources. Until then we're still either chucking other gasses into the atmosphere or burying nuclear waste in the ground.

That's ignoring all of the environmental issues surrounding manufacturing new vehicles and batteries.
 
So we should all buy a 1.2 Fiat 500 and be done with it then?

Pretty sure my 2.5 BMW petrol fails to meet the criteria but luckily I don't drive into London.

If they bring it into smaller towns/cities it may force me to sell it......and buy a newer V8.....as long as it meets the requirements obviously.

Call me selfish but I have no interest in driving a piddly engined petrol or an electric car.

you are not selfih you are irrelevent and insignificant.
even the most ardent moron appreciates change is coming, but you..........
 
you are not selfih you are irrelevent and insignificant.
even the most ardent moron appreciates change is coming, but you..........

Change is only coming for those who can't afford it.

If you can then you can drive whatever you please [emoji1303].

It's clearly a money making exercise otherwise they would simply ban them from entering Cities entirely.

I won't be driving a three hour to 60 petrol or an electric car, I enjoy driving.
 
Change is only coming for those who can't afford it.

If you can then you can drive whatever you please [emoji1303].

It's clearly a money making exercise otherwise they would simply ban them from entering Cities entirely.

I won't be driving a three hour to 60 petrol or an electric car, I enjoy driving.

no one realy cares......
there are so many fabulouse cars and tech out there but you have made up your mind so carry on as you are................
 
no one realy cares......
there are so many fabulouse cars and tech out there but you have made up your mind so carry on as you are................

You care, otherwise you wouldn't be relying to my posts.

You are so right about fabulous cars, the C63 has dropped below the £20k mark second hand so this is going to be a realistic option for me soon hopefully.

Have you driven a small engined petrol car? Jeez, trying to go up a hill in fifth gear is impossible and overtaking takes an age.

Plenty of people enjoy driving and would have no interest in anything electric either.
 
Have you driven a small engined petrol car? Jeez, trying to go up a hill in fifth gear is impossible and overtaking takes an age.
Petrol engines are getting smaller in capacity yet increasing in power and torque, you really are behind the times.
 
Petrol engines are getting smaller in capacity yet increasing in power and torque, you really are behind the times.

I'm fully aware that some manufacturers are increasing power in smaller engines, using small turbo or supercharger etc.

However some of us don't want that, I buy a car due to the enjoyment of driving it, the noise the engine makes.

Plus I really don't see BMW putting a 1.2 turbo into a 3 series any time soon :).

It totally depends on what sort of cars you buy and what sort of money you have for running costs. Those who like a large engined German saloon are not suddenly going to run out and buy a Peugeot xxx with a smaller engine just to save a few quid each month.

I realise the idea of these changes is to phase them in over the years to deter people away from bad polluting cars but it's going to take decades. I suspect I will be retired by then and won't be bothered about the cost of driving my V8 to the shops.
 
This thread it fairly typical of TP. There is a serious problem in cities. Someone is trying to do something about it. And along come those who just don't 'get it'. Who feel they are the victim, by being asked to limit their contribution to pushing the pollution levels to way over the legal limits. And demand that they can continue to carry on polluting with their precious car that they lovingly chose. And demonstrating that they don't care about those suffering from their pollution. Some might even go as far as to 'deny' the pollution or the suffering. With claims that it's evil people out for political or financial gain.

And they write it all down in the posts for us all to read as 'evidence' of their arrogance, or lack of understanding. They clearly don't realise how bad they look.
 
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Like I said earlier a diesel engine sometimes is just the right tool for the job. I'll quote myself as it seemed to get ignored.

Me. Still the best tool for the job here. I mean show me a decent size car that returns 55-60mpg and won't turn into an asthmatic 50 a day smoker when loaded to the rafters. If work have to ship me to London on a job the that cost will most likely get passed to the client one way or another.
 
How much does it cost to actually charge a electric car like a tesla? I imagine the electric bill would be higher then just fill it the tank of petrol
 
I'd agree if we had more renewable energy sources. Until then we're still either chucking other gasses into the atmosphere or burying nuclear waste in the ground.

That's ignoring all of the environmental issues surrounding manufacturing new vehicles and batteries.

Don't dismissing EV based on the currently still improving renewable energy sources. Besides, lifetime EV drivetrain pollution is already below of fossil cars because battery are always recycled to stationary battery, no engine oil to change during its life time. EV need consumer support and company investment, there can't be a sudden surge of EV when renewable energy is plenty, manufacturing unfortunately doesn't work this way.

New vehicle production pollution is a problem, it's the same for EV and fossil cars. Luckily i3 is tackling that, and other manufacturers are working out ways to use renewable parts.

Plus I really don't see BMW putting a 1.2 turbo into a 3 series any time soon :).

You'd be surprised :) I can see the next 3 series hybrid get 1.2 or smaller engine.

I too enjoy driving, and I see cars like Tesla and i3 are a great driving machine. None of the turbo lag or noise, just pure adrenaline pumping acceleration. It's the superior form of power delivery. Even hybrids like 330e or c350e are much better than the turbo lagged stuff on the market.
 
This thread it fairly typical of TP. There is a serious problem in cities. Someone is trying to do something about it. And along come those who just don't 'get it'. Who feel they are the victim, by being asked to limit their contribution to pushing the pollution levels to way over the legal limits. And demand that they can continue to carry on polluting with their precious car that they lovingly chose. And demonstrating that they don't care about those suffering from their pollution. Some might even go as far as to 'deny' the pollution or the suffering. With claims that it's evil people out for political or financial gain.

And they write it all down in the posts for us all to read as 'evidence' of their arrogance, or lack of understanding. They clearly don't realise how bad they look.
I drive a car and cycle to work. Suffer from asthma too. Pollution is bad in london but much worse in other parts of the world.

Problem is our transport system is not great especially for school runs.

I use my car to go to places outside of London normally
 
How much does it cost to actually charge a electric car like a tesla? I imagine the electric bill would be higher then just fill it the tank of petrol

£18 for 300 miles according to real world figures for top spec performance model S P100D and 12p electricity cost on http://www.nextgreencar.com/ Much less if you are on economy 7 and charge at night. That's £36 for 600 miles compared to £65 fill up for typical diesel and P100D can go 0-60 in 2.4 seconds. In the real world, you can't legally drive much faster than that anyway. The lowest spec model S 60 (this number is battery size) can still accelerate 0-60 in 5 seconds, M3 speed.

There's also EV charging network, Ecotricity's network charge £6 for 30min charge, that equates to charge 30% to 80%, meaning £6 for 150 miles. Or Tesla's completely free supercharge network, 0 to 80% in 40 minutes. (although new cars registered from this month only get certain miles free on superchargers every year, but their pricing is still cheaper per miles than diesel)
 
It's just a shame the public rapid charging network is so rubbish in a lot of the country. That's what is really hampering me from using my Soul in going to a lot of places at the moment. Ecotricity are useless and don't even have customer support on a Sunday so if you have a problem you have to be flatbedded. It's not good enough. Support also finishes at 8pm on a weekday and 6pm on a Saturday so again any problems with their crappy DBT chargers which are the most unreliable heaps of junk imaginable and you're on a flat bed. They don't support CCS charging well either.
 
I'm fully aware that some manufacturers are increasing power in smaller engines, using small turbo or supercharger etc.

However some of us don't want that, I buy a car due to the enjoyment of driving it, the noise the engine makes.

Plus I really don't see BMW putting a 1.2 turbo into a 3 series any time soon :).

It totally depends on what sort of cars you buy and what sort of money you have for running costs. Those who like a large engined German saloon are not suddenly going to run out and buy a Peugeot xxx with a smaller engine just to save a few quid each month.

I realise the idea of these changes is to phase them in over the years to deter people away from bad polluting cars but it's going to take decades. I suspect I will be retired by then and won't be bothered about the cost of driving my V8 to the shops.
America is pretty much the home of the V8 yet there has been quite a considerable take up on smaller, lighter, more economical yet more powerful V6 engines. Not only do cities have to clean up their air quality but car manufacturers are obligated to lower their average CO2 rating across their range. So there is every chance BMW will have a small capacity turbo engine in a 3 series as well as V6 turbo engines replacing their V8's and it's liable to happen within the next few years not decades as you seem to think.

Forgot to add a turbo charged small engine can still be fun to drive and even V8's now come with artificial engine noise played through the speakers. The sound symposer on my Focus 2.0 ST packed up a year or so ago. Engine is still capable of giving a pleasant sound, not as loud but certainly undertones of an Escort BDA engine, that's got to be one of the best 4 cylinder engine sounds ever.
 
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Don't dismissing EV based on the currently still improving renewable energy sources. Besides, lifetime EV drivetrain pollution is already below of fossil cars because battery are always recycled to stationary battery, no engine oil to change during its life time. EV need consumer support and company investment, there can't be a sudden surge of EV when renewable energy is plenty, manufacturing unfortunately doesn't work this way.

New vehicle production pollution is a problem, it's the same for EV and fossil cars. Luckily i3 is tackling that, and other manufacturers are working out ways to use renewable parts.



You'd be surprised :) I can see the next 3 series hybrid get 1.2 or smaller engine.

I too enjoy driving, and I see cars like Tesla and i3 are a great driving machine. None of the turbo lag or noise, just pure adrenaline pumping acceleration. It's the superior form of power delivery. Even hybrids like 330e or c350e are much better than the turbo lagged stuff on the market.
Most engine oils now are fully synthetic and can be recycled anyway.
 
I drive a car and cycle to work. Suffer from asthma too. Pollution is bad in london but much worse in other parts of the world.

Problem is our transport system is not great especially for school runs.

I use my car to go to places outside of London normally
There was something I caught on the radio a couple of days ago about a London school banning cars from the vicinity of the school. Not just parking but dropping off too.
 
£18 for 300 miles according to real world figures for top spec performance model S P100D and 12p electricity cost on http://www.nextgreencar.com/ Much less if you are on economy 7 and charge at night. That's £36 for 600 miles compared to £65 fill up for typical diesel and P100D can go 0-60 in 2.4 seconds. In the real world, you can't legally drive much faster than that anyway. The lowest spec model S 60 (this number is battery size) can still accelerate 0-60 in 5 seconds, M3 speed.

There's also EV charging network, Ecotricity's network charge £6 for 30min charge, that equates to charge 30% to 80%, meaning £6 for 150 miles. Or Tesla's completely free supercharge network, 0 to 80% in 40 minutes. (although new cars registered from this month only get certain miles free on superchargers every year, but their pricing is still cheaper per miles than diesel)

Is the purchase price comparable though?

What about maintenance etc?

I have no idea, hence my questions.

To try and encourage some people to go electric is fine but it's going to be a hard sell if it's more difficult for them to use it as a daily driver and also costs more over a 3 to 5 year period of ownership.
 
£18 for 300 miles according to real world figures for top spec performance model S P100D and 12p electricity cost on http://www.nextgreencar.com/ Much less if you are on economy 7 and charge at night. That's £36 for 600 miles compared to £65 fill up for typical diesel and P100D can go 0-60 in 2.4 seconds. In the real world, you can't legally drive much faster than that anyway. The lowest spec model S 60 (this number is battery size) can still accelerate 0-60 in 5 seconds, M3 speed.

There's also EV charging network, Ecotricity's network charge £6 for 30min charge, that equates to charge 30% to 80%, meaning £6 for 150 miles. Or Tesla's completely free supercharge network, 0 to 80% in 40 minutes. (although new cars registered from this month only get certain miles free on superchargers every year, but their pricing is still cheaper per miles than diesel)
O nice I thought it would use up a lot of electricity.
 
This thread it fairly typical of TP. There is a serious problem in cities. Someone is trying to do something about it. And along come those who just don't 'get it'. Who feel they are the victim, by being asked to limit their contribution to pushing the pollution levels to way over the legal limits. And demand that they can continue to carry on polluting with their precious car that they lovingly chose. And demonstrating that they don't care about those suffering from their pollution. Some might even go as far as to 'deny' the pollution or the suffering. With claims that it's evil people out for political or financial gain.

And they write it all down in the posts for us all to read as 'evidence' of their arrogance, or lack of understanding. They clearly don't realise how bad they look.

you are just so close to the truth it is scary.
 
This thread it fairly typical of TP. There is a serious problem in cities. Someone is trying to do something about it. And along come those who just don't 'get it'. Who feel they are the victim, by being asked to limit their contribution to pushing the pollution levels to way over the legal limits. And demand that they can continue to carry on polluting with their precious car that they lovingly chose. And demonstrating that they don't care about those suffering from their pollution. Some might even go as far as to 'deny' the pollution or the suffering. With claims that it's evil people out for political or financial gain.

And they write it all down in the posts for us all to read as 'evidence' of their arrogance, or lack of understanding. They clearly don't realise how bad they look.

As long as people are fairly compensated then there is no problem, but when it was announced that was not the case. It is simply not fair to ask (generally those that would struggle to afford it) just to write off their car and go without or pay massive fines.
 
Perhaps the people suffering should stop breathing too. They will be astounded by the "me, me, me, my precious car" attitude.
 
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Nice to see all the EV interest and user experience. Hopefully it all adds up to less misconception about EV's.


Is the purchase price comparable though?

What about maintenance etc?

I have no idea, hence my questions.

To try and encourage some people to go electric is fine but it's going to be a hard sell if it's more difficult for them to use it as a daily driver and also costs more over a 3 to 5 year period of ownership.

Price is on the expensive side, as with all new technology. But the Tesla Model 3 is to be around £35k, not too expensive than a similarly high tech spec'd 3 series.

Very little maintenance is needed for a EV. The AC electric motor has 1 moving part, the gearbox is very simple, no clutch. Brake pads also wear a lot less because most of the time you'll slow down by putting energy back into the battery. Servicing only involves changing pollen filter and battery conditioning fluid every other year.

Only thing people might find difficult is charging at home. It's currently not feasible for those parking on the street. For those with driveways, people need to remember plugging it in every night. But flip-side is that for most people, getting more energy into the car should be seamless on a daily basis. You'll never have to detour to petrol stations anymore.

Currently, due to high entry cost but very low running cost, the longer you own an EV, the better its value. I have calculated I can afford either a leased hybrid (Ioniq) for £220 pm, or a leased EV (i3 REx) for £350 pm. This is because fuel cost comes down by 50%, and servicing cost is less. Unfortunately i3 has rare large but skinny tyres, which are expensive to replace. Tesla Model 3 is currently my top choice for the tech inside, especially the updating firmware (similar to how you get a new interface and features when you update your phone's firmware)

O nice I thought it would use up a lot of electricity.

Hum, sorry, I was wrong. 100 kWh battery at 12p per kWh electricity should cost £12 to fill up. Even better :)

Reason it doesn't use lots of electricity is that, as a drivetrain, it is a LOT more efficient than internal combustion engine. There is very little energy wasted as heat. The downside is that during winter, you'll have to use a (usually 3-5kw) heater which eats into your total range. I'd personally estimate EV range by taking their quoted range, take away 20% because you want to avoid operate on battery upper and lower limits, then take away another 20% for extreme driving conditions. That gives you realistically how far you can reliably go. Then take away another 10% is how far you can reliably drive between quick charges, because batteries can only quickly charged up to 80%, above this percentage it slows down and not worth waiting. So for me, 200+ miles range EV is tipping point, it comfortably allows ~2 hours of motorway driving between quick charges, allowing long distance travel.
 
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They made a knee jerk reaction in the late 1990's and we now find they got wrong, and they are going to make the poor public pay. Why don't they take some time and do a proper study and come up with the right answer and not another knee jerk reaction
 
They made a knee jerk reaction in the late 1990's and we now find they got wrong, and they are going to make the poor public pay. Why don't they take some time and do a proper study and come up with the right answer and not another knee jerk reaction
Why do you say it's a knee jerk reaction. The pollution needs to be reduced so they are trying to dissuade people from using vehicles that are producing pollution above an acceptable level. All the studies have been done. They know how much pollution these vehicles give out what else is there to study? It's 2 years away diesel cars that won't be charged will have been around for over 3 years and petrol vehicles will have been around for over 12years. Plenty of 2nd hand cars to trade up to if you need one to drive into London.
 
How did they get it wrong? CO2 levels needed to be reduced and they did it. Now they want particulate levels reduced to improve air quality.
 
so if you have a problem you have to be flatbedded
Just curious, do the RAC AA et al cover such eventualities?
even V8's now come with artificial engine noise played through the speakers.
:LOL: :LOL: :LOL: / breathe :LOL: :LOL: :LOL:
That's as useful as that hissy noise you get from some of the Subaru's when they change gear!
 
Just curious, do the RAC AA et al cover such eventualities?

:LOL: :LOL: :LOL: / breathe :LOL: :LOL: :LOL:
That's as useful as that hissy noise you get from some of the Subaru's when they change gear!
That's a dump valve it gets rid of unwanted boost pressure. Some exhaust into the atmosphere which is why you can hear it. Some cars exhaust back into the airinlet pipe just upstream from the turbo compressor wheel.

My sister in law ran out of battery charge in her leaf a few months ago. Car reckoned it had enough charge for another 40 miles or so, but the battery felt otherwise. Rac or AS whoever she is with, flatbedded it home for her.
 
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That's a dump valve it gets rid of unwanted boost pressure. Some exhaust into the atmosphere which is why you can hear it. Some cars exhaust back into the airinlet pipe just upstream from the turbo compressor wheel.
And the twatts that add it as an "after market" part, just for the sound? :rolleyes:
 
Well let's face it if you had a car that sounded a bit like an old VW Beetle with no exhaust you'd want to try and make it sound more interesting too. ;)
 
Well let's face it if you had a car that sounded a bit like an old VW Beetle with no exhaust you'd want to try and make it sound more interesting too. ;)
you never seemed to get with the "retro" thing did you ?
Get with the (Hipster) times :D
 
Perhaps the people suffering should stop breathing too. They will be astounded by the "me, me, me, my precious car" attitude.

Not really, as they are talking about fines in theory everyone could still drive into towns. If it was that serious don't you think they would simply ban them?
 
Reason it doesn't use lots of electricity is that, as a drivetrain, it is a LOT more efficient than internal combustion engine. There is very little energy wasted as heat. The downside is that during winter, you'll have to use a (usually 3-5kw) heater which eats into your total range. I'd personally estimate EV range by taking their quoted range, take away 20% because you want to avoid operate on battery upper and lower limits, then take away another 20% for extreme driving conditions. That gives you realistically how far you can reliably go. Then take away another 10% is how far you can reliably drive between quick charges, because batteries can only quickly charged up to 80%, above this percentage it slows down and not worth waiting. So for me, 200+ miles range EV is tipping point, it comfortably allows ~2 hours of motorway driving between quick charges, allowing long distance travel.

Good post. I did have a company Lexus CH200 which was a hybrid - never did like the silence when using electric.

200 miles is ok for most use, but although rare, what about when we go on holiday to cornwall, or to visit friends in Manchester... how quick do these charge at a motorway for example?
 
I
you never seemed to get with the "retro" thing did you ?
Get with the (Hipster) times :D
I have no intention of growing a stupid beard or putting an Alice band or top knot in my hair thanks.
 
II have no intention of growing a stupid beard or putting an Alice band or top knot in my hair thanks.
Oh go on, I bet you'd look cute :D
 
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