At last London is taking dirty diesel seriously

Yes. They're often do the vehicle manufacturer specific breakdown cover that EVs come with.
Another supposition, as they become more and more popular I wonder if they will carry a generator, that is capable of a fast charge for say 100 miles.to "get you out of trouble,
Rather like these multi fit spares they carry, these days, as more and more vehicles don't have a spare.

As an aside some years ago, I was refused a call out, for a puncture, as my spare wasn't in the car ( it was being repaired FFS! :rolleyes: )
Stating that all members have to carry a spare tyre.
How times have changed Eh?
 
Good post. I did have a company Lexus CH200 which was a hybrid - never did like the silence when using electric.

200 miles is ok for most use, but although rare, what about when we go on holiday to cornwall, or to visit friends in Manchester... how quick do these charge at a motorway for example?
For city or town driving buy an EV. For anything more get a hybrid.
 
Another supposition, as they become more and more popular I wonder if they will carry a generator, that is capable of a fast charge for say 100 miles.to "get you out of trouble,
Rather like these multi fit spares they carry, these days, as more and more vehicles don't have a spare.

As an aside some years ago, I was refused a call out, for a puncture, as my spare wasn't in the car ( it was being repaired FFS! :rolleyes: )
Stating that all members have to carry a spare tyre.
How times have changed Eh?

The BMW i3 Rex effectively already does. It has a small petrol engine which will keep the battery charge level constant for about 80 odd miles.
 
Another supposition, as they become more and more popular I wonder if they will carry a generator, that is capable of a fast charge for say 100 miles.to "get you out of trouble,
Rather like these multi fit spares they carry, these days, as more and more vehicles don't have a spare.

As an aside some years ago, I was refused a call out, for a puncture, as my spare wasn't in the car ( it was being repaired FFS! :rolleyes: )
Stating that all members have to carry a spare tyre.
How times have changed Eh?
As they become more popular there will be more charging points anyway. Car companies are already investing in making sure there will be an infrastructure of charging points. Plus ranges will gradually increase as time goes on. Ford are planning on launching a small electric SUB within the next 2 or 3 years with a range of at least 300 miles.
 
As they become more popular there will be more charging points anyway. Car companies are already investing in making sure there will be an infrastructure of charging points. Plus ranges will gradually increase as time goes on. Ford are planning on launching a small electric SUB within the next 2 or 3 years with a range of at least 300 miles.

Needs to be a genuine 300 miles not the NEDC BS test 300 miles. EPA is far more realistic for electric car range.

Battery temperature management and managing range reduction in cold weather is an area they have to get better.
 
This thread it fairly typical of TP. There is a serious problem in cities. Someone is trying to do something about it. And along come those who just don't 'get it'. Who feel they are the victim, by being asked to limit their contribution to pushing the pollution levels to way over the legal limits. And demand that they can continue to carry on polluting with their precious car that they lovingly chose. And demonstrating that they don't care about those suffering from their pollution. Some might even go as far as to 'deny' the pollution or the suffering. With claims that it's evil people out for political or financial gain.

And they write it all down in the posts for us all to read as 'evidence' of their arrogance, or lack of understanding. They clearly don't realise how bad they look.

And there are some (and I'm not pointing fingers at anyone) that don't seem to have any real knowledge in this area, that just keep recycling the rhetoric being pedalled by politicians, activists and the media, and making snide remarks.

Air quality is without doubt a serious problem in cities and road transport emissions apparently/unsurprisingly make a considerable contribution to this.

Society is MASSIVELY invested in Diesel engine technology. Current diesels are hugely cleaner than previous generations. Taking the older generation trucks, vans and cars (diesel and gasoline) off the road or at least out of cities is likely to help improve urban air quality. Getting shot of old vehicles is an easy target and almost a no-brainer. Problem is there is an awful lot of them and many people cannot afford to buy newer low emissions vehicles and are either unable or unwilling (perhaps both) to effectively scrap their car because it's good for the environment to do so.

Modern gasoline engines are mostly direct injection and produce similar amounts of particulate (number) as diesel. Gasoline engines appear cleaner because the particles are too small to reflect visible light, unlike particulates from older diesels which are larger and therefore more visible. Modern DPF equipped diesels release less particulates overall, but very much less visible particluates. Lots of very small particles are not good, hence the new emissions standards have a particle number limit for both diesel and gasoline vehicles.

There are no 'real world' legal limits for vehicle emissions, they are only required to pass a very specific (unrepresentative) test protocol.

EV, HEV, PHEV etc. are all interesting, but each bring issues that need to be resolved and again their emissions performance is regulated and tested using specific test methodologies. There are no real world emissions limits for these either. The test protocols may have changed since I was last involved in this four or five years ago.

The whole area of emissions testing needs revising and this is in progress, but that doesn't address the vehicles that are already on the road

Big politics is definitely in play in this area, one only has to consider who gains and who loses when new technologies are developed and introduced.

FWIW my/our current cars are both diesel:
One is a 2010 Euro 5 hatchback, equipped with an oxidation catalyst and particulate trap (DPF). It doesn't have a de-NOx after-treatment system, so tailpipe NOx emissions are basically the same as engine-out. These are minimised using a cooled exhaust gas recirculation (EGR) system, which works well enough to meet the Euro 5 test limits, but unlikely to be effective over the full operating range of the engine (which isn't tested under the regulations). In addition, increasing EGR reduces the formation of NOx, but it also reduces engine efficiency increasing fuel consumption and CO2 emissions.

The second is 2016 Euro 6 estate. It has an oxidation catalyst, DPF, EGR and a selective catalytic reduction (SCR) de-NOx after-treatment system. It presumably meets the Euro 6 limits during the test and I would expect it to have low emissions in real world usage. Though in practice NOx is still likely to be higher than the official test limit. BTW I wouldn't be surprised if gasoline cars exceed the test limits when driven on the road.

Anyway, in my view there is no panacea and this issue is going to rumble on for some time to come.
 
The irony is newer diesels aren't massively cleaner at all. When tested in real world conditions they're still as filthy as older cars. EU5 seem to be dirtiest of all.
 
The irony is newer diesels aren't massively cleaner at all. When tested in real world conditions they're still as filthy as older cars. EU5 seem to be dirtiest of all.
That's at least in part because they aren't legally required to meet real world emissions standards (which don't exist BTW). In addition there is no real world standard test method.
 
That's at least in part because they aren't legally required to meet real world emissions standards (which don't exist BTW). In addition there is no real world standard test method.
There is a real world test method. Manufacturers have been gearing up for it for around a year in preparation from when it starts.
Real world emissions are likely to be higher than current lab test emissions because in the real world the engine is breathing in and trying to run on other cars exhaust fumes as opposed to the relatively clean air in a lab.
 
There is a real world test method. Manufacturers have been gearing up for it for around a year in preparation from when it starts.
Real world emissions are likely to be higher than current lab test emissions because in the real world the engine is breathing in and trying to run on other cars exhaust fumes as opposed to the relatively clean air in a lab.

I'd hope they'd account for that otherwise there's going to be some egg on face if they haven't checked intake and exhaust air.
 
There is a real world test method. Manufacturers have been gearing up for it for around a year in preparation from when it starts.
Real world emissions are likely to be higher than current lab test emissions because in the real world the engine is breathing in and trying to run on other cars exhaust fumes as opposed to the relatively clean air in a lab.
Can you link to the method please? Unless you mean the world harmonised cycle or the stuff TNO et al are working on, in which case I'm aware it already. Still doesn't help with what's out there already.
 
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I'd hope they'd account for that otherwise there's going to be some egg on face if they haven't checked intake and exhaust air.
Big difficulty with 'real' conditions is coming up with a meaningful definition of what real means. How polluted does the intake air need to be to be representative and who decides?

Another challenge is that when determining the emissions level from the vehicle, they are refererenced against the background air. When the intake air is contaminated, the exhaust emissions can be cleaner than background, yielding a negative result. Thus making the contribution from the vehicle hard if not impossible to determine.

The labs used to measure vehicle emissions cost millions to build and run (I think ours would have been £4M to build from scratch). The engineers and technicians that run emissions test programmes are highly qualified and talented. The regulations and test methods are not dreamed up by a bunch of irresponsible idiots. The whole area is very complex with many conflicting parameters.

The plain fact here is that there are huge numbers of vehicles on today's roads. Human and vehicle populations continue to grow.

BTW, there is no such thing as zero emissions vehicles, even EVs produce particulates as the tyres wear down and this is more significant than many people think.
 
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How much better is unleaded?
Gasoline engines run at different air:fuel ratio (richer) and usually lower compression ratio than diesel and have different heat release characteristics. So they make less NOx to begin with and the typical exhaust gas chemistry allows the use of a reducing catalyst to break down the NOx that is formed. So from a NOx viewpoint they are cleaner than diesel. However, down-sized, boosted, direct injection gasoline engines start to look a lot like Diesel engines from a combustion and NOx point of view.

Diesels are inherently low producers of CO and unburned hydrocarbon and typically are more fuel efficient resulting in lower CO2 emissions. But they do make more NOx, which can't be reduced by a simple catalystic process due to presence of excess oxygen in the exhaust gases. Reducing engine efficiency reduces NOx, but increases particulate emissions.
 
Can you link to the method please? Unless you mean the world harmonised cycle or the stuff TNO et al are working on, in which case I'm aware it already. Still doesn't help with what's out there already.
I have no link to provide. I only know from what we get told in meetings at work (Ford R&D) that we get from time to time explaining current and future products and projects.
 
Good post. I did have a company Lexus CH200 which was a hybrid - never did like the silence when using electric.

200 miles is ok for most use, but although rare, what about when we go on holiday to cornwall, or to visit friends in Manchester... how quick do these charge at a motorway for example?

They charge 50% in 20-30 minutes, up to 80% within 40 minutes. So a lunch or tea break and you'd be good to go for another 2+ hours on the motorway. EV do fantastic in slower environment. It's the motorway speeds that drains battery fastest.

Another supposition, as they become more and more popular I wonder if they will carry a generator, that is capable of a fast charge for say 100 miles.to "get you out of trouble,
Rather like these multi fit spares they carry, these days, as more and more vehicles don't have a spare.

Good idea in theory, I had looked up something similar a while ago: why don't manufacturers make a tiny range extending trailer?

Answer is EV quick charging speed is 40+ kW. Small generator generally can't reach 20 kW. Perhaps there will be dedicated call-out generator vehicles in the future for this kind of things in future.

My sister in law ran out of battery charge in her leaf a few months ago. Car reckoned it had enough charge for another 40 miles or so, but the battery felt otherwise. Rac or AS whoever she is with, flatbedded it home for her.

Sounds like a fault in the battery management system. Get the car checked by Nissan. If it's a bug, automatic firmware updates should have been able to prevent this kind of thing in the first place. With prediction algorithm improvements, auto firmware updates will make the guess-o-meter as accurate as newest models.

For city or town driving buy an EV. For anything more get a hybrid.

Buying one in Q2 2017, I agree with this. But as with all new emerging technologies, this statement must be re-evaluated every few months.

I feel i3 REx is the hybrid to aim for, shame it's the only range extending hybrid on the market. The Prius and Lexus hybrids are still very dependent on fossil fuel. Likes of Outlander PHEV, Golf GTE and 330e are just normal hybrid with a slightly bigger battery. The battery is not big enough, the engine will still do most of the work. In those PHEV's EV mode, if you press accelerator all the way down, the engine still kicks in because the battery cannot provide enough power.
 
Answer is EV quick charging speed is 40+ kW. Small generator generally can't reach 20 kW. Perhaps there will be dedicated call-out generator vehicles in the future for this kind of things in future.
Oh well that was a good idea while it lasted :D
But , I think there may well be a business opportunity for some smart arse I'm the not too distant future
 
There's a common fault with the leaf. The 12v battery dies and the rest of the car dies. It seems whatever nissan do to keep the 12v correctly charged doesn't work. A lot of the others are the same as a normal starter battery is just useless at the job they are using it for.
 
Answer is EV quick charging speed is 40+ kW. Small generator generally can't reach 20 kW. Perhaps there will be dedicated call-out generator vehicles in the future for this kind of things in future.
Ford are developing a hybrid pick up (F150 / F350) in the states, which they reckon will be able to power a small worksite as a generator.
 
Ford are developing a hybrid pick up (F150 / F350) in the states, which they reckon will be able to power a small worksite as a generator.

Quick search shows common diesel generators shows smaller ones generate 2-3kW, bigger ones generate 7-8kW. How much constant power does a small worksite need? 4kW for the lights and other constantly on stuff? If a constant feed of 5kW into the vehicle hybrid battery, you'd be able to power a small worksite no problem using the battery to smooth out any peak demands.


The charging speed is key. I've no doubt if you (or recovery service) are happy to wait 1 hour at the roadside to get 10 miles into your car, then they do indeed have a business case for carrying a small generator. I think people don't realise just how much energy is in a 10 litre jerry tank. The rate of energy transfer by purring that jerry tank is immense.

Youtuber Bjorn in Norway driving an early Tesla S had once ran out of power on the highway. He pushed the car to the nearest house, got a few km back into it and then drove a short distance to the supercharger he was aiming for. So getting 5-10 miles back into EV allowing you to get to the next fast charger is feasible, as long as there is a sufficiently dense charging network.

As I was saying, a truck sized generator is needed to sufficiently charge an EV in a short-ish amount of time. I see AAA already have a solution: https://electrek.co/2016/09/06/aaa-ev-emergency-charging-truck/
 
It's a start, but they still need a hell of a long lead :D
It’s currently available in Portland, Seattle, San Francisco, Los Angeles, Denver, Phoenix, and Orlando.
 
America is pretty much the home of the V8 yet there has been quite a considerable take up on smaller, lighter, more economical yet more powerful V6 engines. Not only do cities have to clean up their air quality but car manufacturers are obligated to lower their average CO2 rating across their range. So there is every chance BMW will have a small capacity turbo engine in a 3 series as well as V6 turbo engines replacing their V8's and it's liable to happen within the next few years not decades as you seem to think.

Forgot to add a turbo charged small engine can still be fun to drive and even V8's now come with artificial engine noise played through the speakers. The sound symposer on my Focus 2.0 ST packed up a year or so ago. Engine is still capable of giving a pleasant sound, not as loud but certainly undertones of an Escort BDA engine, that's got to be one of the best 4 cylinder engine sounds ever.

They are no longer obligated to lower anything. Trump just killed it. And thank God for that.

Like you say they drive V8s and V6s while petrol costs half of what we pay. They have hardly anything to complain about. Tell them to drive 1.0 fiestas and see how far you go with that. The cronycrats think we are this stupid and brainwashed in UK and EU that we will just accept any further form of austerity our way. No f*****g thanks.
 
They are no longer obligated to lower anything. Trump just killed it. And thank God for that.

Like you say they drive V8s and V6s while petrol costs half of what we pay. They have hardly anything to complain about. Tell them to drive 1.0 fiestas and see how far you go with that. The cronycrats think we are this stupid and brainwashed in UK and EU that we will just accept any further form of austerity our way. No f*****g thanks.

The yanks can do what they want, without being funny that country is doomed anyhow and I am only interested at this junction in the UK as a whole.
oddly enough statistics show the 10 most polluted US cities allready exceed WHO particualte levels so if they reduce there carbon responsibility it will get worse.
the result will be obese kids with bad lungs
 
They are no longer obligated to lower anything. Trump just killed it. And thank God for that.

Like you say they drive V8s and V6s while petrol costs half of what we pay. They have hardly anything to complain about. Tell them to drive 1.0 fiestas and see how far you go with that. The cronycrats think we are this stupid and brainwashed in UK and EU that we will just accept any further form of austerity our way. No f*****g thanks.

Trump just killed what exactly? Car manufacturers are having to reduce their emissions for the world market as a whole.
Ford already sell 1.0 Fiestas in America, they wouldn't bother to put them up for sale there if they didn't have a market for them.
 
Big improvements in air quality could come with smaller (and cheaper) changes than a 300+ mile battery. City NOx levels are particularly bad because congestion and standing traffic create the least efficient use of fuel in the worst possible places, it's why we've seen Stop-Start bolted on to so many vehicles (something I'm not convinced by). All electric is the solution for city/town driving that can't be avoided - it should be standard for supermarket delivery vehicles, couriers, taxis, etc. But if I look at my own driving (I don't "commute" I work on different client sites every day) it doesn't need a massive technological fix to reduce or remove the worst polluting elements:
  • The first two miles in the morning - cold engine, through town to get out of town, often congested
  • The intervening 10-100 miles - open road
  • The last two miles - driving into a town, often congested
I only need a battery that will give me 10-20 miles range and can get an 80% recharge over 10-20 miles of open road driving. The intervening open road section can be an IC turbo (diesel or petrol). When my route does take me off the open road and through a town it needs a smart system linked to the nav system to switch to the battery automatically. A smart system that linked to the nav system could even predict which sections of the route are most vulnerable to NOx/PM2.5 pollution and manage the battery system in advance to ensure there's sufficient charge at the right time.
 
maybe if the mayor introduced sensible london travel costs people would use cars far less. cheaper for me to drive into London from zone 5 than it is to use the train and tube even accounting for ridiculous parking costs. . oh and we have a diesel too. a company car that we had no choice on getting as it had to be diesel. its a 1.6 and has 92 gms emissions so falls into £0 road tax so as far as we were aware it was a clean green option, and at 72 mpg certainly a lot cheaper to run.
 
Guess the value of my Audi is about to plummet further, better run it into the ground then [emoji23]
 
maybe if the mayor introduced sensible london travel costs people would use cars far less. cheaper for me to drive into London from zone 5 than it is to use the train and tube even accounting for ridiculous parking costs. . oh and we have a diesel too. a company car that we had no choice on getting as it had to be diesel. its a 1.6 and has 92 gms emissions so falls into £0 road tax so as far as we were aware it was a clean green option, and at 72 mpg certainly a lot cheaper to run.
If it's euro 6 it still is the green option as it won't attract the extra charge.
 
Big improvements in air quality could come with smaller (and cheaper) changes than a 300+ mile battery. City NOx levels are particularly bad because congestion and standing traffic create the least efficient use of fuel in the worst possible places, it's why we've seen Stop-Start bolted on to so many vehicles (something I'm not convinced by). All electric is the solution for city/town driving that can't be avoided - it should be standard for supermarket delivery vehicles, couriers, taxis, etc. But if I look at my own driving (I don't "commute" I work on different client sites every day) it doesn't need a massive technological fix to reduce or remove the worst polluting elements:
  • The first two miles in the morning - cold engine, through town to get out of town, often congested
  • The intervening 10-100 miles - open road
  • The last two miles - driving into a town, often congested
I only need a battery that will give me 10-20 miles range and can get an 80% recharge over 10-20 miles of open road driving. The intervening open road section can be an IC turbo (diesel or petrol). When my route does take me off the open road and through a town it needs a smart system linked to the nav system to switch to the battery automatically. A smart system that linked to the nav system could even predict which sections of the route are most vulnerable to NOx/PM2.5 pollution and manage the battery system in advance to ensure there's sufficient charge at the right time.
I predict there will soon be cars with small capacity turbo charged petrol engines. The will have cylinder deactivation so they can run on just 2 cylinders, PFI and DI fuel systems and the possibility of alternators that can double up as electric motors which will be able to turn the engine and move the car in slow moving stop start traffic or produce additional torque to the engine when needed for acceleration to reduce fuel consumption and pollution.
 
The yanks can do what they want, without being funny that country is doomed anyhow and I am only interested at this junction in the UK as a whole.
oddly enough statistics show the 10 most polluted US cities allready exceed WHO particualte levels so if they reduce there carbon responsibility it will get worse.
the result will be obese kids with bad lungs

The amount I have been farting today I have probably exceeded WHO particulate levels! Thanks goodness I cant get fined!
 
I only need a battery that will give me 10-20 miles range and can get an 80% recharge over 10-20 miles of open road driving. The intervening open road section can be an IC turbo (diesel or petrol). When my route does take me off the open road and through a town it needs a smart system linked to the nav system to switch to the battery automatically. A smart system that linked to the nav system could even predict which sections of the route are most vulnerable to NOx/PM2.5 pollution and manage the battery system in advance to ensure there's sufficient charge at the right time.

What you've described is very close to BMW's 330e, (probably also Merc C350e) where it will use your sat-nav to optimise the electric range. If it had over-the-air firmware update (like Tesla and everyone's smart phones), the NOx/PM pollution hotspot route can be added overnight.

It is probably the closest we can get before battery prices drop enough to make EV more attractive.

I predict there will soon be cars with small capacity turbo charged petrol engines. The will have cylinder deactivation so they can run on just 2 cylinders, PFI and DI fuel systems and the possibility of alternators that can double up as electric motors which will be able to turn the engine and move the car in slow moving stop start traffic or produce additional torque to the engine when needed for acceleration to reduce fuel consumption and pollution.

Problem is constant speed change (acceleration) in stop-go traffic. The way most people closes the gap, cylinder deactivation unfortunately won't help with emissions. It might work if car manufacturers enforce mandatory cylinder deactivation using sat-nav locations like mentioned above. But I doubt those cars will be popular.
 
What you've described is very close to BMW's 330e, (probably also Merc C350e) where it will use your sat-nav to optimise the electric range. If it had over-the-air firmware update (like Tesla and everyone's smart phones), the NOx/PM pollution hotspot route can be added overnight.
.. but most drivers will need to wait until PSA/Fiat/etc produce a more affordable version.. one of the reasons I mentioned a small capacity battery. 10-20 mile range hybrid systems should be more affordable and my guess is that they'd deal with the worst 80% of the problem at 20% of the cost of the solutions from the higher end manufacturers.
 
Problem is constant speed change (acceleration) in stop-go traffic. The way most people closes the gap, cylinder deactivation unfortunately won't help with emissions. It might work if car manufacturers enforce mandatory cylinder deactivation using sat-nav locations like mentioned above. But I doubt those cars will be popular.
The cylinder deactivation is for when you are just cruising and don't really require the power. PFI (fuel injected into the inlet manifold) for urban driving and the small electric motor/alternator for assistance as pfi produces less particulates than direct injection. Direct injection and pfi at various mixes for acceleration as DI produces less co2 and is more economical. They won't need to be activated by sat nav as the pcm can recognise which modes are best for the engine, due to the speed and load at any given time.
 
Trump just killed what exactly? Car manufacturers are having to reduce their emissions for the world market as a whole.
Ford already sell 1.0 Fiestas in America, they wouldn't bother to put them up for sale there if they didn't have a market for them.

They can have anything like for sale, but does it sell? The most popular new car is a Ford F150. No2 and no3 are similar vehicles. They are great and beautiful vehicles; I would own one if gas cost as little over here. I can't see them selling many fiestas, mainly ST and RS models... Only the communist hipsters in hellholes like CA would buy one with half the engine.
 
They can have anything like for sale, but does it sell? The most popular new car is a Ford F150. No2 and no3 are similar vehicles. They are great and beautiful vehicles; I would own one if gas cost as little over here. I can't see them selling many fiestas, mainly ST and RS models... Only the communist hipsters in hellholes like CA would buy one with half the engine.
Fiesta sells well enough, they even have a 4dr saloon version. It's been on sale there since 2008, the ST has only been on sale since around late 2012 and there is no Fiesta RS, They sold around 69k Fiestas in 2011 Just short of the number of Mustangs sold that year, the number fluctuates each year between approx. 50k to 65k, The Focus RS has only been on sale for around a year but the Focus has been on sale there since 1998, although they did have a brief departure with their own model Focus before returning to a global car in 2011. They are also getting the Ecosport small fwd SUV which is based on the Fiesta platform. Ford have been selling smaller engine capacity cars in America for almost 60yrs including the Mk1 Cortina and mk1 Capri. I'm well aware of the F150, the F series has been America's best seller for years, but even some of the V8 engines have been replaced with a turbocharged V6.
 
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