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  1. GreenNinja67

    GreenNinja67

    Messages:
    1,948
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    Terry
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    Yes
    Now put your armour on Ryan.
     
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  2. Mr Perceptive

    Mr Perceptive

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    David
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    Not all cameras are for all people, we all have different criteria. That is why on numerous posts above it has been suggested that a gradual move (trial) might be the best way forward for the OP, a s/h X-T1 and s/h lens if bought sensibly will be worth near enough what the purchaser pays for them in a couple of months time, so have a try and see if its the system for you, much better IMHO than a big bang approach.

    FWIW the laws of physics indicate that a Crop Sensor will always have disadvantages against a FF sensor, especially if used in low light and at wide apertures (very shallow DOF).
     
    mal robb likes this.
  3. Furtim

    Furtim

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    1,104
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    No need for armour!

    Points 2,3,4 absolutely agree with. Nothing to do with whether it's Fuji, Sony, Panasonic; they are just choices you make. When compared to full frame, crop will give more noise, less bokeh, and smaller bodies, with smaller batteries with greater draw (EVF) will give less shooting time per battery. The trade off comes in size, both body and glass. Every choice comes in at a sacrifice - just go into them with open eyes.

    If you really want the best, go 8x10. Portability suffers though!

    As for point 1 - that was my claim, based on my experience based on what I shoot. Your experience is different, I've no reason to doubt your experience. For sure AF Tracking isn't as good, but again, it's a trade off against size.

    The last point, 5, its not a case of burying heads in sand. Some have the experience you describe, others don't; whether it's down to in camera settings, shooting styles, environmental conditions, or processing styles, I don't know. Certain approaches in Lightroom bring it out I'm sure, but I've never seen it personally. It certainly doesn't mean I'm burying my head in the sand.

    There are other benefits or mirrorless - manual focus is easier (for me) on mirrorless, and that's opened up a whole world of options for using old kit, which is fun, but that can mean absolutely nothing to someone else, so again, it's all down to choices.
     
  4. tijuana taxi

    tijuana taxi

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    Rich
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    All comes down to having the right tools for the job

    For me as a hobbyist the Fuji system is exactly what I want, can see why a wedding, sports or wildlife photographer could want something else.

    Use mine all the time and very happy with the results, but if I miss something from slow af or battery drain it won't affect my income or prevent the bills being paid.

    Pointless me telling the pro what they want or need, works the other way too. If the enthusiast says they are satisfied no point trying to dissuade them with pitfalls they probably will never encounter
     
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  5. ryanyboy

    ryanyboy

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    5,090
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    Ryan
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    Very well put Rich. As it happens I've kept an X-Pro 2 and a 23mm lens for those days when I just want to go out and shoot for my own pleasure. But when I'm taking people's money I have to be satisfied that me and my pictures are worth it.
     
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  6. GreenNinja67

    GreenNinja67

    Messages:
    1,948
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    Terry
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    Dissuation was never my intention.


    A person with all the facts is able to make an informed choice.

    If I knew what I know now I'd not have lost all that time and effort switching systems.

    Luckily I was not out of pocket.
     
  7. ryanyboy

    ryanyboy

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    5,090
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    Ryan
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    I don't think anyone thought you were trying to dissuade anyone. And I'm not either.

    But I think it's good that folks like you and I can bring a bit of balance to the conversation. As I said to the OP in post #4, based on what he shoots I'd strongly advise him to stick with what he's got now.
     
  8. Raymond Lin

    Raymond Lin

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    Raymond
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    I feel like my Fuji system are not fully capable to fulfill my talent...sounds big headed but hear me out.

    I have or want a certain level of photographic vision, this level moves with technology, my experience and knowledge, and I like my gear to either keep up or move along with me in order to allow me to execute the images I have in my head into my fingers and turn it into real world images.

    My Canon set up have a larger latitude to create images at the boundaries than my Fuji, the boundaries in the Fuji is smaller. Of course if I work within those boundaries covered by both cameras then it matters not what camera I use. I feel like I am not doing myself justice if I intentionally using inferior tools.
     
  9. Furtim

    Furtim

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    1,104
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    Are they inferior or just a different fit which doesn't meet your needs?

    Is a bigger sensor 'better' or is portability 'better'? It's a subjective choice based on the needs of an individual.

    For me, I'd take portability over sensor size to a pony that works for me. Others may take an 8x10 inch 'full frame' plate over portability.

    Not suggesting size is the only factor by the way!
     
  10. Raymond Lin

    Raymond Lin

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    3,808
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    Raymond
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    I don't consider size between the 2 to be a problem, if I want a photo, i would do my best to get that photo, if the only obstacle is weight then I'll just have to get through that problem. We are not talking about size of a fridge vs a microwave. Both canon and Fuji can be picked up with 1 hand, both are perfectly portable.
     
  11. Raymond Lin

    Raymond Lin

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    3,808
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    Raymond
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    No
    It's more than just sensor, there are lots of little things, like lens selection, bokeh, feel, optical VF, to little things like where the lens mount release button is, to the Fuji lenses are so small I have nowhere to grip the lens to twist it! I also don't like where the exposure comp is at the top and I can't just turn a dial to change it with the new firmware.
     
  12. ryanyboy

    ryanyboy

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    Ryan
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    I heard you out. Still sounds big-headed.
     
  13. Mr Perceptive

    Mr Perceptive

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    David
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    Yes
    On x-T2 you can adjust exp comp. with a dial
     
  14. Raymond Lin

    Raymond Lin

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    3,808
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    Raymond
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    When you have a vision that you know, one camera can capture a better image and the purposely and intentionally choose one that is inferior, it's not the camera's fault, it's not the skills, it's my choice. It's basically a conscience choice to take an inferior photo, I can't live with that. I can if it's something unimportant but when it's an important event, why would I choose to limit myself?
     
  15. Raymond Lin

    Raymond Lin

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    3,808
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    Raymond
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    No
    You used to be able to do that on the X-T1 before an firmware update removed it!
     
  16. Furtim

    Furtim

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    The point was more over your choice of 'inferior'. Different in this context means worse in some ways, better in others. What better and worse are subjective given the needs of the individual.

    Size does matter to me. The knobs and dials matter to me. The EVF matters to me. Minimising noise doesn't, ultra shallow DoF doesn't so I made choices.

    If I want to use your language, my current setup is superior to my full frame 5D and glass a plenty.

    Not the case for everyone, but you get the point?
     
  17. Jelster

    Jelster

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    Raymond, for a very conscious fellow, you seem not to want to learn how to use a different system. For me personally, the X-T2 has everything where I want it, it's all in easy reach, and I know I have small hands, so maybe that's why I get on with the Fuji stuff so well.

    What is more important, is that since I switched to Fuji I want to go out and shoot more often, that in itself is a major plus. My T2 & 10-24 come out with me much often than my 6D & 17-40 ever did.
     
  18. SsSsSsSsSnake

    SsSsSsSsSnake

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    My ex said that size does matter to her, thats why i'm her ex ;) thought it might lighten the mood
     
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  19. GreenNinja67

    GreenNinja67

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    Terry
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    Yeah, she said that to me too o_O
     
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  20. GreenNinja67

    GreenNinja67

    Messages:
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    Terry
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    I was very upset the Fuji XT2 didn't live up to expectations.

    I'm certainly not a hater (or whatever the word is t***s use nowadays).

    I loved the EVF, I loved the fact that looking through the viewfinder showed you what the shot would look like.

    I loved the AF, it seemed to work well for me but not a patch on my D750 and I liked the dials.

    But for the money it cost I expected a camera body to be able to take a very good image. Others like the output, I'm in the minority but as I previously stated once you see a flaw you'll always look for it.
     
  21. tijuana taxi

    tijuana taxi

    Messages:
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    Trying to think of a measured and intellectual response to some of the views raised above in particular those concerning vision and latitude.

    Unfortunately I have failed miserably in my efforts to address those points in an eloquent manner so will resort to my native tongue

    What a right load of old b*****ks, gone into the ins and outs of a cats a******e just to say you prefer a different camera.
     
  22. GreenNinja67

    GreenNinja67

    Messages:
    1,948
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    Terry
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    That's a bit rich....................... Rich :D
     
  23. tijuana taxi

    tijuana taxi

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    You are probably right Terry, but it's also a bit rich coming on a specific manufacturers thread to tell everyone how s*** their cameras are.

    This is from the same person who equates box collection with looking after equipment, more old cobblers
     
  24. BacktotheFuji

    BacktotheFuji

    Messages:
    4,598
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    G
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    No
    Surely the most important point here is that the Fuji gear looks far cooler ;)

    Seriously though, people seem happier to pose for my Fuji and have a conversation than they did when I carried a DSLR.

    Finer detail was better from my 6D, but I'm way past that. The Fooj is light enough to go (almost) everywhere with me, which makes the difference. Doubt my X-T1 would be the best for sports mind, but it's good for fast moving toddlers!
     
  25. ryanyboy

    ryanyboy

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    Yes
    This wasn't a "specific manufacturers thread". It was a thread asking "should I change from x to y". And I don't think anyone has said Fuji cameras are s****. But in a world where you can easily read how wonderful the Fuji cameras are, I don't think it hurts to offer an alternative view.
     
    Phil V likes this.
  26. tijuana taxi

    tijuana taxi

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    I apologise, you are right about it not being a specific manufacturers thread. My comments stand though with regard to the sanctimonious nonsense about limiting oneself etc.

    Alternative view is fine and yes constructive criticism is good, but a load of other crap being spouted that actually means bugger all
     
  27. ryanyboy

    ryanyboy

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    5,090
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    Ryan
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    I think I know what you referring to. And yes, lots of egos who think the photography is about them and not the actual photo.
     
    tijuana taxi likes this.
  28. Raymond Lin

    Raymond Lin

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    Raymond
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    Exactly, it's your opinion and mine, no point getting upset over it.

    For me, bokeh plays a big part in my photos. It is a matter of fact to APSC don't get the same bokeh at the same aperture. Even if everything else being equal, you cannot alter this fact, and to me, this element is inferior. Bokeh matters to me a lot.

    As to other things like EVF, I can take it or leave it, I kinda know what the image will look like without looking at it, just need to be in the room and I can guess the settings 90% of the way there, having an EVF knowing what the image will look like before a shot? Most of the time I already have it in my head before the camera is even up to my eye, and the stuff i shoot is about anticipating the moment, not setting it up and wait. If its the former you need to know the settings before you take the shot anyway or you'll miss it, if its the latter you have an eternity to set it up and do it right so makes little difference if its Optical, chiming, EVF or LCD. So, at least to me, EVF is not that big an advantage

    The caveat is I would like a no black out EVF, that would be cool.

    Size, I find the Fuji too small, I have thumb grip and leather case on both of them to help out the grip.

    Dials, it looks cool but it slows down work flow. It is a 2 hand job operating the camera. I can change ISO, Shutter speed, drive type, etc with 1 hand and quickly, and without taking my eye from my VF.

    It's not about learning different systems. They all work the same way, the principles of operating them are the same, don't get me wrong, I am not saying Fuji is a bad system, I bought 2 bodies and 4 lenses in the space of 2 months FFS, if I didn't like it I wouldn't have bought all that. And also I have taken it out a few times just when I head into town, something i don't do with my Canon, that aspect wise, like you said, is a plus.

    What I am saying is, people seem to miss the point, when the conditions are at the extremes, I can and able to push my Canon set up further than I can with the Fuji set up that I have.

    I am able to get out my 35L mk2 and I know it will focus like nothing else. I don't think Fuji makes a lens like that, for one thing, it is not the same bokeh. Or Fuji don't have the Speedlites, which is very easy to operate. I am not talking about Fuji don't create good images, I am saying the limits of the Canon system are bigger.
     
  29. Furtim

    Furtim

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    1,104
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    Why limit yourself to the Canon in that instance? After all a 35mm and crop sensor really are not all that different in size. Why not go for one of the larger formats? Film or Digital?

    Manual focussing with mirrorless systems via an EVF is so much more accurate than with DSLR via and OVF. May not matter to you, but, you know - balance.

    I do struggle to understand this though - not doubting your experience, but so wildly different from mine. The one hand / two hands yes - you do need both hands to operate something like the Fuji, but it's for the same reason it is so quick to change settings on the fly if needed. Literally everything is just a turn away (apart from the ISO on an XPRO2!), and you can change two things at once :)

    Think of a limit in terms of something that prevents someone from achieving their aim, and not just something smaller. Just add a 'for me' to that last statement and everyone's cool :)

    Everyone seems agreed that different systems work for different people based on what they want to get out of it.
    I guess what niggles is that you're of the view that because of your visionary photographic prowess, your aims should apply to everyone and by failing to embrace those we are somehow inferior photographers by choosing the limit ourselves.
     
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  30. hobodan

    hobodan

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    504
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    Dan
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    No
    Like many I've been around the block and tried all the manufacturers (Canon / Nikon / Fuji / Sony ). The grass is never greener, and the Fuji wont do anything your canon can't do. But gas is a real and valid reason to change :D

    The best advice is to get your hands on one for a day or two and try, I could have stopped myself buying many a camera if only I did just that. After a year or so of owning Fuji you may well find yourself hankering to go back to a dslr (I did). Maybe going all in is not the best option? If you can purchase a used body and lens to see how it goes, it may save you any regrets.
     
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  31. woof woof

    woof woof

    Messages:
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    I moved to CSC for the bulk and weight savings but since then I've come to love the things that DSLR's can't do or can only do when shooting at arms length and squinting at the back screen. Things such as the ease with which you can manually focus with a CSC, being able to see the DoF, exposure, peaking, in view histogram etc. To me these are real advantages as is not having to worry about MA-ing lenses.
     
  32. badboy1984

    badboy1984

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    To me all camera manufactory have pros and cons. Depend on personally choice or situation, those pros and cons might be a different in terms of choosing the right camera. No doubt I like my D3/D700 setup with Nikon 2.8 glass and 1.4 prime but the weight is a massive issue when traveling etc, I end up not taking the camera out and miss alot of chance to shoot something I really like. The Fuji change the who situation for me, I now enjoy taking the camera out and shoot. The Fuji does have its cons and I do miss the D3 capability but overall the Fuji does the trick. I do quite alot of street photo and personal projects, which the Fuji does well for me.

    I got to admit, moving from DSLR FF to mirrorless is a big step because shooting technique might be different (at least thats how i found it).

    i.e you won't sell all your DSLR FF gear for a hasselblad and then go do some sports photography?

    Different camera for different people. Their are no perfect camera, if you want something, you got to trade off something.
     
  33. SsSsSsSsSnake

    SsSsSsSsSnake

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    You can always sell it if you fancy a change ,i do and it's fun
     
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  34. badboy1984

    badboy1984

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    How much do you lose when you do it every week? lol
     
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  35. SsSsSsSsSnake

    SsSsSsSsSnake

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    Lol it's not a concern to me to be honest,if it spreads a little happiness to someone else that's worth a lot,I've never really bothered about money ,it comes and goes lol,must be the 60's lad in me
     
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  36. Stephen L

    Stephen L

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    1,580
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    Stephen
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    If you want to make some go my way ...
     
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  37. Terrywoodenpic

    Terrywoodenpic

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    4,439
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    If you want and need the qualities available with a 10x8 stand camera then that is what you need. However it will bring masses of down sides with it.
    Likewise a full frame 35mm DSLR has upsides and downsides that we all know about.
    This is also true of a Crop CSC.

    However there is also no doubt that leaving pixel peeping aside, prints and images on computer screens, seen at appropriate viewing distances, can look for all intents and purposes pretty much Identical, whether taken with a crop DSLR, a full frame DSLR or a CSC.

    In most circumstances a well exposed and processed image taken on any of these types of camera will display no problems as to noise, tonality, colour or sharpness.

    At abnormal magnifications the images from sensors will start to break down for various physical reason, Pixel count and size and pixel density related to sensor size are the obvious reason for this. what is not a reason is the viewing system used such as a mirror viewfinder as against EVF.

    Fuji make among the very best crop sensor cameras, and the images they produce are among the very best in every respect.
    They are in fact so good, that they are competing in the same market place as Full Frame cameras. Which is why they are both being discussed in this thread.
    However we are not comparing like for like, and at their extremes. they have significant differences, one to the other.

    The quality of the lenses at this top level have insignificant differences, but all follow the rule that the smaller the sensor the smaller and lighter the lens can be made.
    While 2/3rds cameras are generally smaller than APS and they in turn smaller than Full frame. this can only be taken to extremes at the expense of handling properties. Sony have demonstrated how small FF cameras can be made, Fuji have not gone down this route and kept their cameras more proportionate to both hands and lenses.

    We all know that Contrast detection focussing is far more precise than Phase detection. Up to now It is also rather slower. We also have seen that hybrid on sensor focussing has very largely eliminated this gap. at least as far as non specialist uses are concerned.

    The functional lay out of cameras varies considerably between makes. Leica and Fuji have tried to maintain a traditional feel and layout which I definitely prefer to my Canon. But this will always be a matter of personal preference.

    The other main difference on Fuji cameras is the use of their X-Trans array in place of the more common Bayer filter array. This has distinct advantages in terms of aliasing and moire effects. However at and over 100% pixel view, this does tend to show some patterning artifacts that are otherwise invisible. This seems to be more a case of the raw processor used and the amount and method of sharpening, as some algorithms are better at not showing this than others.
    In actual use we do not view files at those extremes anyway. But it seems to disturb some more sensitive pixel peepers
    The advantages of the X-trans array more than make up for this in real use. Prints made at 100% do not show this as a problem.

    A photographer should always chose a camera for what it can do and how well that fulfill his needs.
    I do not need a FF camera, I do like CSC's and the advantages of EVF's. I do like the way Fujis handle and the results they produce. They do what I need them to do........
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2017
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  38. tijuana taxi

    tijuana taxi

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    What a contentious issue this has turned out to be.

    I bought a X-E1 and 18-55mm lens about four years ago, used it, liked it and sold my Canon gear
    Can't say I did much soul searching or underwent a spiritual transformation, might change again one day, might not, but besides me who really cares.

    Bit like when you buy some insignificant item on Amazon and the offer is there to share it on Facebook.
    Can only imagine the euphoria when virtual strangers see I have purchased spare line for my strimmer and some muffin cases
     
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  39. trevorbray

    trevorbray

    Messages:
    3,657
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    Trevor
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    Yes
    This
     
  40. Raymond Lin

    Raymond Lin

    Messages:
    3,808
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    Raymond
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    No
    Because, like OP, I have a full Canon system.

    It's not about selling up Canon and spend money to get something "less". I already spent the money on Canon. It's in my bag. The choice is actively choosing something "less" and in a way, price difference is not as big between the Canon and Fuji as say a Phase 1 to a 5D4. If I am starting from scratch, sure, the Fuji is attractive, but when I already have hands on Canon....I need more reasons to switch to Fuji besides size is smaller.

    If you want to get down to it, I would choose Large format too, if the DR is anything like my Canon, they are not, and for the price of one Large Format Digital, I could put it towards a house deposit.

    When I shoot manual focus with DSLR, I do it with the LCD, on a tripod, zoomed in to check. EVF is irrelevant.

    The ISO on the X-T1 require 3 fingers and a the same time. You press, hold down and twist. On the 5D, you press the ISO button, you get that option flash up and you flick the dial with the other without holding it down.

    I am not saying you are an inferior photographer, if that is how it came across, I apologise. I meant the Canon is more able to fulfil my photographic vision than the Fuji, from the speed of accessing the settings, to actual output from the sensor, lens choices and flash systems on offer.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2017

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