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  1. michael23

    michael23

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    Not bothered about it being scientific Robin, it's how it compares against the 7d2 (i have one of those) The lag or viewfinder blackout has been picked upon by some reviews I have read, single shot to shot in quick succession times have not been quick enough in response to get a certain moment, but other reviewers had not picked up on it, maybe a buggy camera, I don't know? )Of course shot to shot times do depend on how fast the card is that is used,

    I had an extensive play with an M5 back at the photography show, but it wasn't real world enough for me to decide on getting one.
    Video is not really an issue, but is contradicting in reviews I have seen, some say it's very good, and another said full hd was like 720p in quality...

    I am thinking of hiring one at some point if it's possible.
     
  2. RedRobin

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    ....Hmm, I hope you are wrong about the lag. I tend to trust Tony Northrup's reviews and he hasn't mentioned it. Would a firmware update have fixed such an issue? Such an issue would be a major failure and I doubt it is so. Apparently using the Canon app on an iPhone to remotely trigger the shutter is absolutely instant and so I don't understand the question about lag. But I am soon about to find out for myself!

    I found a place to hire the M5 but then found a shop 50 miles away to visit (Jessops) to try it out but they let me down by not having the adapter in stock and not keeping me informed about delays and so I decided to take the risk and buy it anyway and obviously elsewhere. Every time I phoned Jessops they gave me a different and later date.

    Try these guys for M5 hire (they also hire the adapter for ~£5/day : https://www.hireacamera.com/en-gb/products/HAC00-03708-canon-eos-m5/
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2017
  3. michael23

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    I can't remember what stage the camera was in, I have so many (too many I Think) reviews now. I have the adapter already, a meike one I purchased a while back for my original M. Thanks for the link, I will take a look. I don't think Tony Northrup has reviewed it properly, it was more of a walk through, unless I have missed the video.

    edit, at £52 per day plus vat, that is to much. :eek:
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2017
  4. tourerjim

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    My feelings the same with all the mixed reviews, not jumping into the M5 like i did with the M & M3
     
  5. mike_6480

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    Or some people are able to read between the lines and be able to understand when someone has just made a typo (or phone auto correct etc) ....

    Obviously the post was "my M than my M3". Talking about the M5 just because that's the camera you have is completely irrelevant
     
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  6. RedRobin

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    ....It's not unreasonable to interpret someone's post as you find it written rather than be expected to read between someone's lines because they were too lazy to check their own text and/or because they rely on a device's auto correct features to think for them.

    This thread is titled "Canon EOS M Series Cameras". That includes discussion about the EOS M5 [/end of]
     
  7. RedRobin

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    M5 first impressions Day 1 (only with Canon Adapter and EF lenses) :

    Heavier weight than expected out of the box but that's a very good thing as it inspires confidence in build quality.

    Looks exactly like a miniaturised Canon D-SLR body but I would not want the camera to be smaller.

    All the physical controls are adequate sizes and there are no unwelcome surprises for anyone already familiar with EOS ergonomics.

    The EVF is stunning! I used to hate EVFs but this one is crystal clear. It feels small though.

    The touch screen is also stunning but you can also use the physical controls or a mixture of both.

    Wheels and buttons can be user customised. So I am matching it to my 7D2 with Back Button Focus and which wheels action Aperture and Shutter Speed (opposite to default) I always shoot Manual-mode.

    So far there is absolutely no blackout during shooting ONE SHOT set at High fps. Buffer blackout is down to the speed of the SD card you use. But I need to test this more when the weather permits, hopefully tomorrow.

     
    Last edited: May 15, 2017
  8. tourerjim

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    Not sure if its been shown before so my apologises if it has but found it interesting.

     
  9. RedRobin

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    M5 first impressions (continued) :

    I have had my M5 since Monday and it's raining even harder today, Wednesday, so I haven't been able to do any field tests yet. I do have a raincover for the EF 100mm Macro lens it is mounted on which also covers a body but the light is as dull as dishwater and the minibeast subjects have gone to ground < This is what I bought the M5 additional body to photograph (not needing to keep changing lenses thereby losing valuable time).

    However, I have shot a couple of pics of a Starling fledgling from my kitchen window - A grey bird on a grey drizzly day (yesterday). Handheld mounted on my EF 100-400mm L II + 1.4x III @560mm and at max aperture F/8 therefore Auto ISO 6400 RAW. The noise level is exactly the same as on my 7D Mark II which in turn is very similar to my now sold 70D - They all have the same sensor type and the AF performance speed feels the same. As a wildlife specialist I always rattle off 2 or 3 frames at a time on max fps.

    I have also played around with it indoors with my EF 40mm pancake lens and of course with its intended life partner the EF 100mm F/2.8L IS Macro and the physical balance is good even when my Kenko 1.4x is added. Physical handling is obviously not so good when the M5 is mounted on my EF 100-400mm either with or without the 1.4x Extender < My 7D2 Battery Grip seriously assists handling on longer lenses. This M5 limitation is to be expected.

    I have found that the plastic hot shoe cover keeps slipping off and so I have left it off. My 7D2 has never had one and has come to no harm without it. It's the only part which is plasticky - The camera body as a whole feels solid and is a good confidence-inspiring weight. Polycarbonates are not 'plasticky' in this context - The term 'plasticky' implies the use of poor quality plastics, not evident on the M5.

    If Canon were to ever offer their EOS mirrorless technology and interface into xxD and xD versions of their larger D-SLR size bodies it would be an absolute killer! I would love an EOS '7MD' if it ever existed.

    Tomorrow's weather forecast (Thursday) looks much more promising for some testing outdoors on minibeasts. I pray for a Dragonfly!

    Meanwhile, anyone considering a M5 may find this a good indicator of what setups are on offer.... [get past his hip hair etc, his videos are very good and informative]


    View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F93xYnLstvU
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2017
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  10. jerry12953

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    Back down to 649 at hdew, I see......729 with kit lens.......

    I wish the kit lens was a 24 -105 equivalent.......
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2017
  11. RedRobin

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    ....I paid HDEW £649 (body only) plus a tenner for postage last week.

    Hints in this video that Canon do plan to expand the EF-M lens range. But the question for those interested will be "Good, but when?" :


    View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qaYzZ5krrw
     
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  12. Phil V

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    I don't generally have a problem with Jared, but only got a few minutes into this...
    I bristled at 'never used exp comp' (the wheels are one of the selling points for me) and switched off at the 'never used the exp lock button'.

    So he's not likely to be giving tips to help me customise in a way I'd want. Because he clearly 'shoots raw' so he's got maximum headroom to sort his exposures out :mad:
     
  13. jerry12953

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    Yes, there is so much overlap between the 15 - 45 and 18 - 150 zooms.

    Thanks for posting the video!
    I think he'd probably prefer something with a blow-dry setting........;)
     
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  14. RedRobin

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    ....We each use our cameras in our own individual way to suit the style of photography we like to do. Jared is merely running through the whole Menu system - He is saying how he personally sets it up but not how you should set it. But I guess that if you gave up after a few minutes you may not have realised that.

    Personally, I found his video useful - Particularly custom controlling the ISO to the top ring. I only use the star (exp lock?) button as back-button-focus. I also shoot exclusively RAW in order to maximise an image's full potential.

    I like the exposure compensation wheel feature as well.
     
  15. Phil V

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    I did go back to watch it all.

    He did spend too much time talking about stuff I have no interest in, and for me it'd have made more sense to note more of what's customisable, I've presumed BBF on the * button, but can I use M with auto ISO and exp comp? What min shutter speed options do I get with auto ISO?

    It was interesting that he said there was no blackout of the vf, I'm thinking it's a great camera.
     
  16. RedRobin

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    ....There are quite a lot of video reviews of the M5 online (I have watched most of them in my consideration of whether to buy or not) and they each have their limitations in the information they give and naturally are biassed according to each reviewer's perspective. One reviewer made a big fuss about too often not being able to avoid unintentionally hitting the video record button but said nothing about the simple fact that you can either switch it to OFF or assign a different function to it.

    I think it's a big plus that the M5 offers so much customisation and therefore a photographer can match his/her customisation on their EOS D-SLR bodies. This also demonstrates that Canon have given serious consideration to its body use with other components of the EOS system and that it's not merely a high quality small travel camera with its own very compact interchangeable lenses (with their limitations).

    I may be mistaken but your questions suggest to me that you are interested in the M5 for landscape photography using very slow shutter speeds etc. I only shoot wildlife (and won't be using this body for fast action captures) and so I have a different perspective and don't know the answers to your questions. Also, I have only had it a couple of days and the weather is appalling. It's not weatherproof either, unfortunately.

    It's very early days in my experience of using the M5 but it is showing a lot of promise (for me and not necessarily for others). Every camera body has its own limitations but that's why we need to buy different ones. As always, it's Horses-for-Courses.

    I intend to continue sharing my personal findings here and hope others do so that we can all benefit.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2017
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  17. Mike.P

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    I notice Portus Digital are doing the body for £619 atm ... tempting.
     
  18. Phil V

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    I'm hoping it's at least as customisable as my 6d.
    I'd like it to be a bit better, because I believe Canon have been a bit behind the curve (particularly with regard to auto ISO).

    I'm more than interested, I'm saving ;) and even if it's only nearly as customisable as the 6d I'll be having one.

    And I've never knowingly shot a landscape in my life, it'll be as a general use / travel / walkabout camera.
     
  19. RedRobin

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    ....I don't know how customisable the 6D is but the M5 is as customisable (within its feature set) as my 7D Mark II. Being newer Canon bodies perhaps they are more customisable than the 6D. Or it might be that added features result in added customising options.

    In Manual-mode you can set the max threshold which you wish for the ISO starting from ISO 400. If you want to set less or override it while shooting it's very easy and both VF and screen displays as you do so are excellent.

    Clearly the size of the M5 make it very practical for use while travelling and even more so regarding overall size if you are happy to use an EF-M lens. Its size together with tilt screen result in it being much more discreet if preferred. From my limited results so far I find the image quality to be the same as the 7D2 and 70D.
     
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  20. Phil V

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    What the 6d lacks with auto ISO; a minimum shutter speed automatically linked to focal length, exp comp in manual when using auto ISO (I've just realised this should work with the exp comp wheel)
    The only ef-m lens I'm planning is the 23mm (until that lens gets some family 32? 56?).

    I was hoping the IQ was better than the 7dII, the reviews say it's as good as the 80d (or better).
     
  21. RedRobin

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    ....If we consider IQ to be judged on noise (rather than the more technical aspects that the human eye can hardly see), then to date I find the noise levels to be virtually the same between the M5 and 7D2. I say this on the basis of photographing the same bird in the same poor light conditions on the same day with the same Canon 100-400mm L II + 1.4x III lens. In turn I have shot thousands of images on both the 7D2 and 70D (when I owned one) on the same lenses and again found noise levels to be virtually the same when comparing very similar images. The 80D is the latest version of the 70D and all these aforementioned bodies have basically the same sensor. Canon have not publicised what exact differences there might, if any, be between these Dual Pixel CMOS sensors. I have no firsthand experience of the 80D.

    To complicate matters further, noise can vary substantially from image to image and no two images are quite the same unless the same subject is set up and shot on a tripod. The camera settings need to be the same as well because aperture and shutter speed can also influence noise. So, unless scientifically tested, the noise levels between the M5 and 7D2 appear to be the same. I have not heard that the 80D is significantly better.

    Add to this that different photographers have different thresholds of acceptance of noise. For my part I judge noise depending on the individual captured subject but of course no-one wants their camera to deliver consistently noisy results.

    EDIT: Could another factor in the M5's favour be that it uses the latest Digic-7 processor?
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2017
  22. Phil V

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    Canon (and every reviewer) have indeed shouted the difference on the new sensor.

    It was mentioned in at least one of the videos you've posted above. They've moved the ADC circuitry onto the sensor to improve dynamic range which cuts down noise when recovering shadows, and it's the first step change in Canons IQ improvements since moving to CMOS.

    As you say though, we all have different shooting habits and you might never notice this.
     
  23. RedRobin

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    ....Ooops! I missed the bit about the ADC circuitry getting moved specifically on the M5 - Probably because I was focussed on other aspects. Cheers, it's good to know and helps justify the expense of a new toy!

    The sun is out here at last and so I'm off out to hunt minibeasts to shoot on the M5 plus macro lens (what I specifically bought the M5 for). Its first real-world field test today.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2017
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  24. Phil V

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    Looking forward to hearing how it goes.
     
  25. tourerjim

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    I'm aiming towards the M6 has its design is that of my M3 so be good to see some reviews on here as well as reviews of M5, another reason im preffering M6 is for the angle movements of the evf which im accustomed with my M3.
     
  26. michael23

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    How's the battery life onthe M5 holding up, it is a different battery to the original m isn't it?
     
  27. RedRobin

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    ....Very badly! I don't know what battery version the earlier M series have but the LP-E17 is not adequate in my opinion and I have all the video settings etc switched off. I do use the tilt screen a lot though and to and fro with the EVF a lot too.

    I have already bought a spare Canon battery and am think of buying a third one as back up. They take a long time to recharge too.

    What gets me is that it starts flashing red very early and before juice is actually used up but there is no %-left indicator in the Menu like on the bigger D-SLR bodies. I have installed the latest firmware.

    Is this behaviour as it was in the previous M series?
     
  28. michael23

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    My original M is very poor on battery life (it runs lpe-12) It's a shame that they haven't improved much. Hopefully that will be addressed on the next iteration. I run some independent batteries and have no issues whilst saving money
     
  29. Phil V

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    The one compromise I was prepared for is battery life. An EVF is bound to eat power more voraciously than en OVF, it's not just the screen, but whilst ever the camera is 'on' all the exp calc and other image processing is live.

    Couple that with a design requirement for a smaller battery and IMHO it's the biggest disadvantage of mirrorless cameras.

    I'll be going straight for spare 3rd party batteries and a charger.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2017
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  30. Steve B

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    Not even sure it is down to the size of the battery?
    During the lunar eclipse back in 2015, I had my Original EOS-M set up alongside my 600D and had them both on continuously through the night (except during battery changes) The 600D was in liveview so I could use the screen to watch the moon through the telephoto on the articulated screen. Taking one shot on each camera every 3-5 minutes I got through 5 batteries on each camera. The DSLR averaged about 10 extra exposures per battery, the EOS-M getting about 110 and the 600d about 120 give or take a couple. Average exposure time was around 10 seconds.

    As you say it is more down to the amount of electronics using power while the camera is turned on. Between shots, I guess a DSLR is effectively in energy saving mode :)
     
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  31. RedRobin

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    ....Useful to know - Thanks Phil and Steve. I usually leave my 7D2 switched on while on walkabout but yesterday I started switching my M5 off between aiming at subjects. Fortunately, like the rest of the M5 physical controls, the ON/OFF switch is positive and easy.

    At the moment I am writing a draft of my findings shooting Dragonflies over the last two days with both my M5 and 7D2 and will post it today. Be warned though that it's not scientific nor particularly technical like some online reviews are.

    Meanwhile, a shot from day 1 : [click image to view EXIF on Flickr]

    [​IMG]
     
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  32. Steve B

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    Cant see much wrong with that Robin, paired with the 100mm looks like it might be a good combo.
    Guess this was taken thursday, unusually good weather for county show week.
    Will look forward to your write up, though wildlife is not really my field, will still be interesting to read real life experiences with the camera rather than technical/scientific tests.
     
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  33. RedRobin

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    My first 2 days using the M5 in the real-world of wildlife photography :

    The weather improved and so I ventured out armed with the Canon EF 100mm F/2.8L IS Macro + 1.4x Kenko mounted on my EOS M5 and the Canon 100-400mm L II mounted on my 7D Mark II. As an amateur photographer specialising in wildlife I was primarily hunting Dragonflies but ready to shoot a bird if the opportunity arose. My usual approach is to get some first shots in the bag with my zoom lens at a distance and then if tolerated, and physically possible, I move closer with my macro lens. Having only one camera body (the 7D2) and swopping lenses had always been consuming valuable time and any commotion can spook the subject. Also, in the environments I operate there is often lots of pollen and other plant debris flying around - Not good to get inside a camera body or lens while hurriedly faffing around.

    The M5 has a lot of customisation options and so I have been able to match most with my 7D2 including Back-Button-Focus and the same Manual-mode setting controls. I half expected to feel that changing to and fro between bodies would be awkward for my existing muscle memory but it wasn’t awkward in the slightest. The Canon user interface is brilliant in its consistency across the system.

    On each day I came home with about 100 images on each camera - I exclusively shoot RAW and post-process in Capture One (not Lightroom). I didn’t shoot any specifically direct comparisons by photographing the same subject with the same lens but swopping the bodies - I was out there to test how my new combo serves me, not anyone else, in the field and the M5 will happily live on my 100mm Macro lens. The combo is very practical and the physical handling nicely balanced. The tilt screen is invaluable. However, its small size does make it awkward to shoot manually in portrait format, especially as I am used to a battery grip on my 7D2.

    After uploading each day’s session into Capture One I found that I had to check the Exif data in order to tell which camera shot which image. In other words, the image quality is virtually the same to the naked eye for both the M5 and 7D2. Any differences were either down to the suitability of the lens or my own photographic inconsistencies. I can’t shoot closer to a Dragonfly than about 3ft with the zoom lens and I can’t achieve enough of the subject in the frame of the macro lens unless I am closer. As always with camera gear, it’s Horses-for-Courses.

    The amount of noise is of course a major consideration for all serious photographers but if you are happy with the 7D Mark II level of noise then you will certainly be happy with the M5 which has the latest version of Canon’s Dual Pixel APS-C CMOS 24 megapixel sensor. In all cameras noise is something which varies with the individual exposure of every image and is visible accordingly.

    In conclusion, the M5 with its EF lens Adapter fits into the EOS D-SLR system very well and its performance is up to speed, in fact quite surprising - It might seem tiny but appearances can be deceiving. Apart from being thirsty for battery juice (a problem solved by carrying a couple of extra batteries) so far it is difficult to find fault with it. Even its lack of weatherproofing is solved by it fitting very snugly in a Lowepro bag.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    ^ Click image to view on Flickr
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2017
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  34. Phil V

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    My point wasn't really the 'battery size' but that clearly a CSC requires power whilst ever its active. Most people don't use a DSLR with live view enabled constantly.

    The size though is a design issue. If we accept that a CSC is going to need more battery power, the next question is can we fit a bigger battery, but the CSCs USP is that it's compact, so a bigger battery isn't a realistic option.
     
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  35. Hugh Jarse

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    The original EOS M was a ver small LP-E12 which was only used in the M/M2/M10 bodies. (The M2 was essentially a Far East remodel M with a control button relocate plus a Blue body was available)

    The use of the LP-E17 chip coded battery was initially brought in for the M3 then used in the EOS 750D/760D. Lately added to M5/M6 and 77D/800D (replacement models for 750D/760D).

    It is a low capacity unit and as I have the 750D and M5 and currently travelling in my motor home, I now have 4 OEM and 6 non-OEM batteries. I have not run out of power at any time and use the OEM units for video on the 750D. The DSTE versions work fine but they are detected when the camera is powered up, accept and you are good to go. There is no battery level indication with the non-OEM. For the price I can live with them.

    There will be a potential issue with these batteries on intensive shoots (motor racing etc) but, realistically, 'pro' use with the M5, is one that would need to be thought about seriously.

    My experience with the M5 has been of exemplary performance and my 750D is about to be replaced with an M6. For me the battery issue has not been a problem.

    Steve
     
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  36. RedRobin

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    ....Batteries getting more drained due to Live View is something I hadn't thought about - I rarely use Live View on my 7D2. I do preview my images after taking them though < There's a term for doing that but I have forgotten it.

    Canon upgraded their LP-E6 (in the 7D2) to LP-E6N with a noticeable amount of extra power, so I wonder if they could do the same with the LP-E17.
     
  37. RedRobin

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    ....Yes, the best thing to do is just to buy enough extra batteries for your type of photography. That's what I will do and then focus on taking the photos. The red low battery indicator on the M5 seems to stay for a while before power is totally gone - The buffer slows down dramatically and it also behaves like shutter lag. Again, the solution is to accept the M5 for what it is and simply get the most out of it.

    Like you, I don't see the M5 being suitable for a professional photographer shooting lots of images in a professional session. But any camera is just a tool and the M5 might sometimes be perfect on occasion as an extra option in the kit bag. It suits me perfectly as I have described in my earlier post.

    Like me, you are clearly happy with your M5, Steve. Just out of curiosity, which EF lenses do you mount on it?

    Canon have been very clever at positioning the M5 - It's a true 'bridge' camera not like the other so-called 'bridge' cameras with fixed lenses (in my opinion).
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2017
  38. jerry12953

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    i'd forgotten about the battery "issue" with CSC's. I remember being shocked at how short a time it was before the battery died on my Pana. GX7. I thought the body must have been faulty so returned it for a replacement, which is just the same. I guess it's a compromise that you have to make for the size of the thing. It does take the shine off a miniature camera body for me - knowing that to use it intensively, you're going to need to buy and carry a couple of extra batteries around with you. (at least)

    I agree. In one of the video's posted above the Canon guy explains who the M5 is aimed at - the photographer with a full canon DSLR kit already who wants to add a small body with familiar controls which will also accept their EF lenses. That's me folks.

    It looks like it's capable of some great results with that lens, Robin.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2017
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  39. RedRobin

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    ....The battery limitation is certainly a compromise but the acceptable degree of compromise has to be up to how the camera is used - Long sessions of sports action would probably be a no-no, for example. You wouldn't want to miss an ace shot while changing battery, which is what happened to me on my 7D2 and why I bought a battery grip the next day! The image of that Swan taking off low across golden water reflecting the reed beds behind and also the background of cherry trees in full pink blossom, is permanently engraved in my brain! The Swan's run was such that I could have rattled off a burst of a dozen shots.

    For my type of usage, I am liking the M5 enough to be prepared to carry 2 extra batteries just in case. I don't shoot any video which I imagine drinks the juice like an Italian V12 supercar < I would buy one of those too if I could afford it!

    The quality of the M5's results can't be expected to match the best of full-frame D-SLR images but I think I have already proved that they can match any current 'crop-sensor' D-SLR when the photographer manages to nail it. The idea of a mirrorless technology EOS EF mount '7MD' at a physical size somewhere inbetween a M5 and a 7D is very exciting! A bigger battery would then fit. I'm not complaining though. There is no such thing as a perfect camera (or perfect lens).

    Here is a shot I took of a fledgling Starling in my garden in light as dull as dishwater - Taken from my open kitchen window with the M5 mounted on my Canon 100-400mm L II + 1.4x III. @560mm and ISO 6400, handheld. I have applied noise reduction to the background only and not the bird or branch, which is something I often do (and don't apologise for!). I also took a another shot but with the 7D2 mounted on the same 100-400mm @560mm, *but not on Flickr yet.

    Click on the image to see more info on Flickr....

    [​IMG]

    P.S. - *I'm going to post it on Flickr and then here shortly....
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2017
  40. Mike.P

    Mike.P

    Messages:
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    Edit My Images:
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    I had the original M along with the 22mm prime, 55-200mm and 11-22mm and thought it was a great little camera but the lack of a viewfinder eventually did my head in and I sold it.

    I am now looking at the M5 body but I see there is also a kit with the 15-45mm for an extra £80. I loved the 11-22mm and would hope to get another in the future but was wondering if anyone is using the 15-45mm and if so what are their thoughts on the lens?
     

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