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Car buyers should have 'long, hard think' about diesel
- Thread starter Mr Bump
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- Paul
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Well, as someone who does 25-30k miles a year meaning I fill up with diesel at least once every week I can honestly count on the fingers of one hand the amount of times in the last 10 plus years I have had a smelly hand after filling up. If it's happening on a regular basis something is going wrong somewhere.
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- Neil
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To be fair some of rbe diesel pumps around here are worse than others. It can be a regular occurance. Esso are usually worse.
I can only assume that drips run down the nozzle onto the handle. But the gloves (or a wet wipe) will sort that easy enough.
I can only assume that drips run down the nozzle onto the handle. But the gloves (or a wet wipe) will sort that easy enough.
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Is it greener though? From the same renewable power source:
EV supply chain issues will be sorted out in due course. It's not as though drilling for oil had been a shinning example of responsibly sourced.
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I think Neil was alluding to overall environmentally friendly, as hydrogen powered cars would do away with the need to mine the materials for the batteries in an EV.Is it greener though? From the same renewable power source:
EV supply chain issues will be sorted out in due course. It's not as though drilling for oil had been a shinning example of responsibly sourced.
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- Toni
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This really. Efficiency in terms of losses through the container walls (26% on transport & storage) may be reduced in the future with new materials less porous to molecular Hydrogen. The especial impact is that rare elements won't have to be mined in order for the vehicles to use it, meaning we won't be destroying someone else's environment so much.
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The way I read the article I linked to earlier seemed to suggest that the hydrogen fuelling stations would also be production facilities so that would cut down on losses due to transport. As demand grows they should be able to sell what they manufacture almost immediately which will reduce losses from storage.
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Supply chain problems will be sorted out in due course. Most EV manufacturers have are both working to remove harmful materials and source all materials responsibly.
(there was an article I read with statements from each manufacturer on their rare earth material use, and what they are doing to improve supply chain ethics. Unfortunately I can't find it)
But what is good with battery EV's is that it is 80% efficient, whereas hydrogen fuel cell vehicles are only 50% efficient. Even bigger gap when you calculate efficiency from source of electricity. It makes no sense to waste power like this, when more efficient solutions are already here.
Another positive is parked EV can be used to provide battery services to homes/grid whereas parked hydrogen cars are same as ICE cars: bricks.
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Electricity transmission is not without its inefficiencies.
IIRC, figures for the overall losses between the power plant and user are something like 10-18%.
PS You neglected to answer my question regarding your assertion that you use 'zero litres' of fossil fuel in your 10,000 miles p/a? (post #2206)
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This loss will be the same for hydrogen or battery EV. What's different is the conversion process to and from hydrogen is hugely inefficient in comparison to charging and discharging a battery.
If there were a change in vehicle technology from internal combustion to something else, it's also the right time to change to something that is most efficient.
This has been talked about previously.
Think of the national grid as a giant bucket of water. I take water for my needs, I pay renewable sources to replenish the water. True the actual water molecules I took may be generated by burning fossil fuel, but fossil fuel burning sources isn't getting my money to replenish the water I took.
So yes, I am sure I used zero litres of fossil fuel, because I chose with my wallet and I am only paying renewable sources.
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The question you were asking 'is it greener though? ' (ref hydrogen to EV) is not really answered by showing which is currently the most efficient fuel type. Nuclear fusion is quite efficient I believe but I doubt you'd describe it as the most enviromemtly friendly.
What is the environmental hit to creating hydrogen, what is the environmental hit to using hydrogen to power a car compared to the environmental hit of an ev, total, including battery and electricity generation for the average user, I. E. Not your personal use but most other people who don't have solar panels or rent their home etc.
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Not reàlly a positive though is it, because the ÈV then becomes a brick because it needs to be recharged again at some point.
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Just seen this in my local rag. Only a small scale trial but could go some way to solving the 'not having a driveway' issue.
https://www.echo-news.co.uk/news/17345095.motorist-could-soon-be-plugging-their-cars-into-lamposts/
https://www.echo-news.co.uk/news/17345095.motorist-could-soon-be-plugging-their-cars-into-lamposts/
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Wouldn't be much of a consolation if they tried something similar down my road. Yesterday afternoon I couldn't even park in my road let alone near a lamp post. Our nearest lamppost is outside next doors property but on the wrong side of the road as everyone parks on the opposite side of the road. The nearest lampposts on the opposite side of the road are opposite side turnings so not really an ideal place to encourage people to park especially as one would hinder buses getting through.
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- Graham
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I wonder if you could have large inductive sections of road, especially at junctions and traffic lights where vehicles could be sitting for a while? Pull handbrake and a charging pad drops or something. It would also take care of ignoramuses sitting with their blinding 2000 LED array brake lights on.
Obviously a serious advancement in tech would be required. And a lot of money.
Obviously a serious advancement in tech would be required. And a lot of money.
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Several car manufacturers have already thought of that idea but as a means of home charging so that you don't need to plug the car in. Problem with doing it in roads is what happens to the Ev's that don't have the capability, could it be something that can be retrofitted? Also unless the charging from the road can be a form of rapid charge, you're not going to get much benefit from the short amount of time you are stationary and how would the amount of electricity recievedcbe charged to the car owner/driver.
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IF it were doable I could imagine retrofitting shouldn't be too difficult, but the original/current EVs are mostly not very good & would be retired in the 10 years it would take to roll that out effectively. Charging would need to be very rapid, but I could imagine each car fitted with a simple RFID chip activated at the same time as charging for funds. However the problem there is privacy/tracking location.
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As above, but I do think it could be feasible because think of how often you are sitting at junctions and lights. Not sure about the motorway stuff though although perhaps easier to expand on rapid charge there than trying to find space in cities.
Even if the tech did come up to speed I think cost would prevent it. Besides, the road surface repair firms struggle with tarmac never mind some advanced tech.
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Most of my car usage is my commute to and from work. I only have to drive through 3 junctions, I say drive through because I rarely have to stop, even on the rare occasions I do have to stop at a junction, it wouldn't even add 30 seconds to my journey. Even when I go to Tesco, I am only paused at junctions for a few seconds. Even if I catch the traffic lights wrong and have to stop, I would only get a couple of minutes charge at best. If Tesco had enough rapid charging spaces for the envisaged greater demand from EV cars, I would still only get around 10 minutes charging time. I would have to prolong my stay at Tesco unnecessarily every week just for an 80% charge where as it takes far less time going and putting petrol in the car, once a fortnight. Plus if I need to extend the cars range a bit further I can always carry around a gallon of petrol in a can in the boot.
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Will motorists who need to use these roads have the means in their vehicles to switch off the recharge if they desire? They may need to get somewhere and have to use those roads and not have the means at that time to pay for the electricity but obviously have enough charge in their battery to make the journey.
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- Graham
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Why do you keep ignoring parts of my posts which already cover your replies?
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Probably because I don't use motorways to get to work.
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People get bend out of shape as though I am insisting they buy EV when I was simply sharing my positive personal experiences with an EV.
People are generally very self centred. Case in point:
Road-way charging is a nice idea, but EV only really need charging on long distance motorway drives. Traffic light charging isn't really necessary because if you are stuck in such slow moving traffic, unlike idling ICE car, your EV will last you hours anyway. For example, if you can average 20mph in the city (30mph roads and traffic light stops), your short range 100 miles range EV will last you 5 hours. This is why there's so many 100 miles e-NV200 used as delivery vans around London.
On my drive home. I loose 1.5% for every motorway miles, there's a constant 10-20kW power draw. But when stuck in traffic close to home, the last 1-2 miles only uses ~1%, there's less than 1kW constant power draw by climate control, a lot of coasting to stop.
People are generally very self centred. Case in point:
Road-way charging is a nice idea, but EV only really need charging on long distance motorway drives. Traffic light charging isn't really necessary because if you are stuck in such slow moving traffic, unlike idling ICE car, your EV will last you hours anyway. For example, if you can average 20mph in the city (30mph roads and traffic light stops), your short range 100 miles range EV will last you 5 hours. This is why there's so many 100 miles e-NV200 used as delivery vans around London.
On my drive home. I loose 1.5% for every motorway miles, there's a constant 10-20kW power draw. But when stuck in traffic close to home, the last 1-2 miles only uses ~1%, there's less than 1kW constant power draw by climate control, a lot of coasting to stop.
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- Glenn
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How is me replying to someone else's post being self centred.
It would appear that you are the one getting all bent up.
When I buy a car I buy what I want with what I can afford and what suits me best.
5 years ago I had a diesel Mondeo ST, because the 3.0 V6 petrol variant was too thirsty and at best would return 25-30mpg against the 55-60mpg the diesel gave me, plus the diesel was quicker for overtaking.
Then when I changed work location the engine was barely warmed up properly by the time I got to work so I traded it in for a petrol Focus ST. After 3 years I traded that in for my RS. The latter although 100bhp more powerful is only 1mpg worse off than the ST, but because of the smaller fuel tank, I have to refuel every fortnight instead of every 2.5 weeks. That is the only drawback. When the engine is at idle it uses a fifth of a gallon per hour, but if the car isn't moving the stop/start kicks in and it doesn't use any fuel. Even when crawling along in first gear on idle, the car is doing a minimum of 12mpg.
I have no ability to recharge an EV at home, we do have charge points in a car park at work but they have to be vacated asap. That is an inconvenience as I work on the opposite side of the estate and it isn't ideal for me to drop my work and vacate the charge point to then have to find a parking space to leave my car for the remainder of the day. That is if the charging points are vacant when I need it and at a time I can get to it.
So EV range, affordability, performance and infrastructure has a long way to go before it even gets close to suiting me.
As I wrote earlier most people buy cars to suit their needs and as EV doesn't suit mine by a long shot, that doesn't make me self centered.
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But petrol variants are available as well as electric on some, so "dirty diesel" which will be cleaner than your current petrol isn't the problem. JLR sales have increased in the last year in America and the UK, but China is their biggest market, so the drop in sales their is hurting them.
Once again you really do need to make yourself aware of the full facts before posting your dirty diesel scaremongering bull.
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I'm fine, thanks for asking. I was just pointing out how you have turned a discussion on road-way charging to be talking about your personal situation. When asked about other parts of the road network, you simply replied it doesn't matter to you.
The only time I talk about my situation is to allow people understand daily usage of EV's. Stuff like typical consumption and how EV is different in traffic. I don't go about dismissing every idea using my personal anecdote.
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Going forward EVs are one transport solution, not the only transport solution. There will still be a place for fossil fuel based mobility and energy production. For example where did the materials come from to make EVs. They have been mined, processed, transported, manufactured using fossil fuel energy. Where does the copper come from to provide the motor windings, improved distribution charging network etc?
Where do the lubricatns needed for our machines (EVs, wind-turbines etc.) come from? Prior to the oil industry, machine lubricants were derived from whale oil. Don't think we want to go there again, though Japan may have other ideas on that. There are certain economies of scale associated with oil production.
As for diesel, that will be an important transport fuel for decades to come. One of the key drivers for the focus on diesel cars is simply urban congestion. Taking diesel cars out of the equation, reduces the number of cars on our roads by about 50%. So this helps with congestion and local air quality (NOx, tailpipe and non-tailpipe PM).
It should also be noted that many current gasoline cars are direct injection. These make far more tailpipe PM than Euro 5+ diesels that have particulate filters. New direct injection gasoline cars will need to have particulate filters too.
Some people choose EVs and have a go at diesel simply as a means for environmental grandstanding; "I'm making better environmental choices than you!"
Where do the lubricatns needed for our machines (EVs, wind-turbines etc.) come from? Prior to the oil industry, machine lubricants were derived from whale oil. Don't think we want to go there again, though Japan may have other ideas on that. There are certain economies of scale associated with oil production.
As for diesel, that will be an important transport fuel for decades to come. One of the key drivers for the focus on diesel cars is simply urban congestion. Taking diesel cars out of the equation, reduces the number of cars on our roads by about 50%. So this helps with congestion and local air quality (NOx, tailpipe and non-tailpipe PM).
It should also be noted that many current gasoline cars are direct injection. These make far more tailpipe PM than Euro 5+ diesels that have particulate filters. New direct injection gasoline cars will need to have particulate filters too.
Some people choose EVs and have a go at diesel simply as a means for environmental grandstanding; "I'm making better environmental choices than you!"
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Motorways / Dual Carriageways, but if none then your commute can't be huge so surely charging at work could be a possible option (obviously if workplaces install sufficient resources)?
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So what you are saying is, it's ok for you to share your experiences but not for me to share my thoughts in the pitfalls that makes current Ev's and the I infrastructure unsuitable for myself and for reasons that a prospective buyer may not have thought of.
I'm not saying any means of propelling a vehicle will be 100% ideal for anyone, which is why you also run a diesel car alongside your EV. But not everyone can afford two or more cars, so for the one car they can afford to buy or keep they need as much information as possible on pros and cons to be able to make that decision. You are providing the pros and I am providing the cons. You obviously just don't like the fact that I can envisage cons that you or others have been unable to think of.
I would gladly have an EV if there was one available with the performance, traction and handling of my current car for the same money and with a recharging system I could realistically use . The latter may well become available in due course, but the former is going to be hindered on cost.
I attended a video conference meeting a week or so before Christmas where they said that no manufacturer is currently making a profit from EV s. and yet they are already expensive to buy. Increased sales could make them cheaper but there is no guarantee of that. They could just as easily remain the same price or become more expensive for models with more power in range.
The UK's number 1 selling car is the Fiesta, it outsells the UK number 2 selling car by something like 20,000 units a year, it is also the top selling supermini hatchback but Ford make a loss on every Fiesta as they do on every Focus sold in Europe. It's only SUV's and their commercial vehicle sales which make a profit.
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My commute is around 8 miles in each direction.
Yes we do have charging points available at work, but there is no guarantee a charger will be free when I need one. Once at work I am working, I can't just interrupt my work to move my car to a charge point, hoping there may just be one available when I get to the car park, nor can I just walk off to unplug my car and move it to another space because I have managed to charge my car, because someone else now requires a recharge. We have 80 engine dyno test cells in my department all running at a cost of over £1k each per day, we can't just disappear at our own convenience because our cars need to be plugged in or unplugged.
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Wrong!
They are building new sites to build both batteries and electric motors, both sites are in England too.
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