Car buyers should have 'long, hard think' about diesel

[Deleted member 49549]

No , I am just pointing out EV cars aren't really that green like people are led to believe. Hydrogen cell cars are far cleaner. CO2 levels from manufacturing a hydrogen cell car will be similar to an ICE car if not lower (much lower than producing an EV and it's only emissions once in use will be water.

I think most people are well aware of the issues with electric vehicles, but I think you 'protest to much'. As had been pointed out their costs are lessening significantly, the infrastructure is increasing and when the economies and efficiencies of scale kick in there may very likely be a typing point quite soon where the manufacturing and the running of the cars will become even more efficient and cheaper, triggering a mass exodus from ICE cars.

Hydrogen doesn't appear to be any closer to becoming mainstream than 30 years ago. It is a brilliant battery technology in that it is environmentally clean and very 'energy dense', but until the creation of hydrogen can be made cheap and efficient it will unlikely become mainstream.

 

[jamesev]

As I said before EV cars have a higher CO2 footprint in production than an ICE. Like for like an EV car costs more to buy in the first place than It's ICE equivalent. It takes a while before the EV can offset that initial CO2 deficit as well as the cost deficit. The only advantage is for 2nd hand buyers not first owners unless the first owner choses to keep the EV for a number of years.

In about 3-4 years the cross over will happen where cost of ownership of EVs will outstrip ICE. And with the continued reduction of carbon content of electricity the production+operating carbon will also swing in favour of EVs

 

[broc]

When will there be affordable EV's with a range of 400-600 miles capable of towing boats, trailers & caravans? How about convertibles?

So far there's nothing I can see which would offer me alternatives to our Euro 6+ BMW X3 diesel towcar or petrol Mini Cooper S Convertible?

As far as I am aware very few EVs are Type approved for towing....... especially with a 1700kg trailer.

 

[nilagin]

I think most people are well aware of the issues with electric vehicles, but I think you 'protest to much'. As had been pointed out their costs are lessening significantly, the infrastructure is increasing and when the economies and efficiencies of scale kick in there may very likely be a typing point quite soon where the manufacturing and the running of the cars will become even more efficient and cheaper, triggering a mass exodus from ICE cars.

I haven't protested at all. Just pointed out where all isn't as it seems but some are struggling with the maths or turning a blind eye on the extra carbon footprint in the manufacturing process. I have just been reading that Tesla have extended the range of Models X and S by 35 miles by better lubrication of the motor, new bearings and tyres. Finally beginning to catch up with what conventional car manufacturers have been doing for decades.

 

[wyx087]

I have just been reading that Tesla have extended the range of Models X and S by 35 miles by better lubrication of the motor, new bearings and tyres. Finally beginning to catch up with what conventional car manufacturers have been doing for decades.

Wow, just wow.

Tesla are so far ahead with their motor-inverter technology, the I-Pace and E-Tron can only be compared to pre-2015 Tesla in efficiency. The Model 3's switched reluctance motor (SRM) is efficiency king. Recent news is that Tesla have re-engineered the front drivetrain, putting the super efficient SRM into the S and X, increasing their range without need to increase battery size.

For comparison:

Audi E-Tron large SUV have 94kWh battery, range of 204 miles EPA rating.
Model X large SUV (that can also tow) have 100kWh battery, range of 325 miles predicted EPA rating.
The 2016 Model X 70D have 70kWh battery, yet still range of 220 miles (from quick search, unsure if EPA rated)
Jag I-Pace small SUV with 90kWh battery has range of 234 miles EPA rating.
Model S saloon with hatchback (still more space than I-Pace) has 100kWh battery, 370 miles predicted EPA rating.

Hyundai Kona small compact SUV has 64kWh battery, 258 miles EPA rating.
Model 3 saloon (slightly smaller than I-Pace, bigger than Kona), the standard range+ has 55kWh battery, but 240 miles EPA rating.

Across the board, Tesla vehicles have either vastly more range for similar battery size, or similar range with smaller battery. So which manufacturer is playing catch up on their EV drivetrain?

 

[nilagin]

In other, less exciting news, Nissan Leaf is UK's fastest selling second hand car:
https://uk.motor1.com/news/344742/nissan-leaf-fastest-selling-used-car/
Must be a reason these EV's are high in demand.......

I wouldn't read too much into that as there are at least 3 different claims for the 2018 top 10 fastest selling cars in the UK .
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...DxAU&usg=AOvVaw2tUf8rvxCsxXTSpkzlxGqV&ampcf=1

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...FjAMegQIAxAB&usg=AOvVaw2TbmaYQ37FRu7sJdwXjjWs


https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...BhAB&usg=AOvVaw0jBwLW-AFHrLSdu2jkwRTL&ampcf=1

 

[nilagin]

Wow, just wow.
So which manufacturer is playing catch up on their EV drivetrain?

I didn't mention EV drive train. I wrote conventional car manufacturers. Tesla are now starting to use things that ice cars have been doing for years in an attempt to provide adequate comparable range.

 

[PaulF]

The way I look at Tesla at the moment is, an innovative designer/inventor without the know how to mass produce.

No argument that the electronics in a Tesla are industry leading in many ways but, and it's a big but, they cannot mass produce the vehicles to a high enough standard to make them competitive on price for the quality of the end product. Tesla may have been better to go into partnership with an established manufacturer similar to Smart with Mercedes, or at least have a consultancy partnership with one.

 

[MatBin]

Another great Q1 for Tesla
Seen all this before, best product by miles (excuse the pun) but cant break into the market in a profitable way and fall by the wayside, replaced by inferior but better marketed product(s). Shame really.

 

[wyx087]

I didn't mention EV drive train. I wrote conventional car manufacturers. Tesla are now starting to use things that ice cars have been doing for years in an attempt to provide adequate comparable range.

Not sure I'd call Tesla "attempting to provide adequate comparable range".........

For comparison:

Audi E-Tron large SUV have 94kWh battery, range of 204 miles EPA rating.
Model X large SUV (that can also tow) have 100kWh battery, range of 325 miles predicted EPA rating.
The 2016 Model X 70D have 70kWh battery, yet still range of 220 miles (from quick search, unsure if EPA rated)
Jag I-Pace small SUV with 90kWh battery has range of 234 miles EPA rating.
Model S saloon with hatchback (still more space than I-Pace) has 100kWh battery, 370 miles predicted EPA rating.

Hyundai Kona small compact SUV has 64kWh battery, 258 miles EPA rating.
Model 3 saloon (slightly smaller than I-Pace, bigger than Kona), the standard range+ has 55kWh battery, but 240 miles EPA rating.

Reads more like Jaguar and Audi are having trouble "attempting to provide adequate comparable range".

I wouldn't read too much into that as there are at least 3 different claims for the 2018 top 10 fastest selling cars in the UK .
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.admiral.com/magazine/news-and-current-affairs/UKs-top-10-fastest-selling-used-cars-for-2018-revealed?amp&ved=2ahUKEwiJz-X42-rhAhWmTxUIHV_3BKAQFjACegQIDxAU&usg=AOvVaw2tUf8rvxCsxXTSpkzlxGqV&ampcf=1

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...FjAMegQIAxAB&usg=AOvVaw2TbmaYQ37FRu7sJdwXjjWs


https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...BhAB&usg=AOvVaw0jBwLW-AFHrLSdu2jkwRTL&ampcf=1

All different data collected across 2018. Thank you for digging them out.

The second link also links to an article talks about Nissan Leaf being the fastest selling car in March 2019. Considering we are in April 2019, I feel March 2019 sales numbers is more news-worthy than 2018 sales numbers.....

The way I look at Tesla at the moment is, an innovative designer/inventor without the know how to mass produce.

No argument that the electronics in a Tesla are industry leading in many ways but, and it's a big but, they cannot mass produce the vehicles to a high enough standard to make them competitive on price for the quality of the end product. Tesla may have been better to go into partnership with an established manufacturer similar to Smart with Mercedes, or at least have a consultancy partnership with one.

Indeed. It feels like their robotaxi announcement is a silicon valley style pivot to get away from manufacturing mass market cars.

But thankfully, they have successfully disrupted the EV milkfloat mentality and pushed other manufacturers to speed up electric cars development. This was Tesla's mission from day-one: to accelerate the world’s transition to sustainable energy. Unfortunately I don't think going into partnership with likes of Mercedes can achieve that. The B250e was a good car but very bad EV, its fastest charging speed was 11kW, it simply cannot do long journeys, it did nothing to change people's mind about EV's.

Being a disruptor, it would also explain why those in the ICE business puts in so much effort to spread Tesla FUD.

 

[nilagin]

But thankfully, they have successfully disrupted the EV milkfloat mentality and pushed other manufacturers to speed up electric cars development.

You keep claiming that, odd that the take up for Ev's has only really escalated since the VW Deiselgate in 2015 and diesel sales have dropped resulting in CO2 emissions rising. Or the impending CO2 limit on car manufacturers ranges with hefty fines for those over the limit. If Tesla had been producing worthwhile affordable cars rather than wasting time on pointless things like Autopilot, perhaps they could have made their cars more affordable and produced safer batteries as well.

 

[Deleted sulking member 63079]

When will there be affordable EV's with a range of 400-600 miles capable of towing boats, trailers & caravans? How about convertibles?

So far there's nothing I can see which would offer me alternatives to our Euro 6+ BMW X3 diesel towcar or petrol Mini Cooper S Convertible?

As far as I am aware very few EVs are Type approved for towing....... especially with a 1700kg trailer.

Only because the manufacturers haven't applied for "type approval".

Electric engines are fantastic for pulling loads as they have max torque from standstill. That's why they're so good for trains.

 

[Nod]

Pulling a trailer really sucks out range from any power train. Since many caravans get dragged fairly long distances, CURRENT EVs probably aren't ideal van draggers. (Now THERE's a big plus point for Neil - when EVs are the norm, there might be fewer caravans on the roads...) Fine for local trailers, just not so good for the longer journeys. Yet.

 

[Cobra]

Electric engines are fantastic for pulling loads as they have max torque from standstill

As you know, towing is not all about torque, its about the weight of the towing vehicle and stability.
I always assumed the EV's would be a lot lighter that conventional cars, so I had a look to see what Google had to say on the subject.
I must admit to being surprised, by what I found.

Electric cars are often heavier than conventional cars, and heavier vehicles are often accompanied by higher levels of non-exhaust emissions. The large torque of electric vehicles further adds to the fine dust problem, as it causes greater tyre wear and dispersion of dust particles.

(every little helps, or not as the case maybe)

 

[Nod]

EVs usually carry their weight lower than ICE vehicles so should be more stable and since (as Chris says) towing weight is proportional to (among other factors) GVW (gross vehicle weight), an EV with more batteries under its floor could be ideal for short tows.

 

[nilagin]

Tesla Model X is the only EV currently certified for towing.
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...FjAOegQIBRAB&usg=AOvVaw2TP6iGRjMRwesxlp-QyNXY
The above link gives some reasons why most manufacturers will be unlikely to seeking certification for their EV's.
I wonder how long before we see motorised wheels for trailers and caravans as a means of assistance. They would of course require their own battery.

 

[wyx087]

As you know, towing is not all about torque, its about the weight of the towing vehicle and stability.
I always assumed the EV's would be a lot lighter that conventional cars, so I had a look to see what Google had to say on the subject.
I must admit to being surprised, by what I found.

Electric cars are often heavier than conventional cars, and heavier vehicles are often accompanied by higher levels of non-exhaust emissions. The large torque of electric vehicles further adds to the fine dust problem, as it causes greater tyre wear and dispersion of dust particles.

Only weighs slightly more:
Randomly picked what looks like a similar spec/powered diesel 2014 Focus Titanium to Leaf: 1336kg
https://www.parkers.co.uk/ford/focus/hatchback-2011/16-tdci-(115bhp)-titanium-navigation-5d/specs/
Nissan Leaf 2014: 1493 kg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Leaf

Just over 10% more weight but zero local exhaust emission so net local emission is hugely reduced. Over both vehicle's typical lifetime, the EV will produce less global emissions. Plus, the more EV get driven, the less per-mile emission it produces, opposite of ICE cars.

Actually, thinking about how the cars carry their weight, that extra weight in EV's are evenly distributed. In ICE, the front axel is more likely to weigh more. So if the Focus has weight distribution of 60/40, the front axel will need to bare 800kg, creating more tire dust than 750kg per axel on the Leaf.

I wonder how long before we see motorised wheels for trailers and caravans as a means of assistance. They would of course require their own battery.

Now that's a good idea! Large trailers like a caravan could do with portable onboard power. So you can drive and camp anywhere.

10kWh is what my house consumes over a day, 6kWh of which are from plugged-in devices (TV/smart devices/file server, stuff caravan won't have), only 4kWh is actual usage. Even my Leaf has 24kWh underneath. So a small 15kWh battery under the caravan chassis is perfectly feasible and should last it at least 2 days in the wild. No diesel generator noise, you can then hear the bird singing.

 

[nilagin]

Only weighs slightly more:
Randomly picked what looks like a similar spec/powered diesel 2014 Focus Titanium to Leaf: 1336kg
https://www.parkers.co.uk/ford/focus/hatchback-2011/16-tdci-(115bhp)-titanium-navigation-5d/specs/
Nissan Leaf 2014: 1493 kg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Leaf

Just over 10% more weight but zero local exhaust emission so net local emission is hugely reduced. Over both vehicle's typical lifetime, the EV will produce less global emissions. Plus, the more EV get driven, the less per-mile emission it produces, opposite of ICE cars.

Actually, thinking about how the cars carry their weight, that extra weight in EV's are evenly distributed. In ICE, the front axel is more likely to weigh more. So if the Focus has weight distribution of 60/40, the front axel will need to bare 800kg, creating more tire dust than 750kg per axel on the Leaf.

For a more representative comparison an electric Focus weighs in at 1651kg.

 

[jamesev]

I guess what needs to be measured is

Manufacturing CO2 (supply Chain)
Operational - Customer CO2 (including supply chain ie whats the cost of logistics for petrol / diesel fuel tankers vs home charging)
Operational - Servicing / Maintence (supply chain of spares etc)
End of life disposal.

Its difficult because as the technology for EVs improves these will go down as well as full life of a car cradle to grave is about 5-10 years and the goal posts with EVs are constantly moving as the technology rapidly develops

 

[nilagin]

I guess what needs to be measured is

Manufacturing CO2 (supply Chain)
Operational - Customer CO2 (including supply chain ie whats the cost of logistics for petrol / diesel fuel tankers vs home charging)
Operational - Servicing / Maintence (supply chain of spares etc)
End of life disposal.

Only problem there is that petrol and diesel are heavily taxed whilst electricity isn't. If or when the loss of fuel taxation revenue is replaced you won't get a true representation.

 

[wyx087]

Only problem there is that petrol and diesel are heavily taxed whilst electricity isn't. If or when the loss of fuel taxation revenue is replaced you won't get a true representation.

The big oil industry get massive amount of subsidies.
https://www.theguardian.com/environ...er-year-on-fossil-fuel-subsidies-abolish-them

So to do what you propose, we should also remove all subsidies, remove all politics, remove all taxes and add carbon penalties, toxic-air penalties, unethical labour penalties to get real representation of each types of car's carbon footprint.

 

[Cobra]

Just over 10% more weight

More wear and tear on the roads, the tax should be way higher than an ICE

 

[suter1972]

I firmly believe that a lot of the scaremongering is down to government and corporations financial situations and just using ecology as a lever to justify it.

For eg…. My (now ex) wife bought a citroen c1 I 2015. This was within the new type of super city cars that they were encouraging us to get and so offered free car tax on this and other models. Even my 2016 1.6 CDTi insignia I had at the time was so frugal/not harmful that it required only £20 a year in car tax.

This was great. We were driving in super efficient cars, being good to the environment as best we could and the government rewarded us for it with £20 a year tax for 2 cars.

With everyone now driving super efficient cars and generating so little revenue they clearly decided our cars weren’t so frugal anymore and introduced a flat £140 a year rate for cars with virtually only full electric qualifying for zero tax.

This created a situation where someone could have bought my wifes car on one day and benefited zero tax, but the day after (when the flat rate was introduced) another owner buying one would be stung for £140 a year. It’s the same car, so how can it suddenly become less environmentally friendly, unless it is for no other reason than them realising they have lost a huge revenue stream from car tax.

Why are diesels so bad now when less than 2 years ago my diesel was granted £20 a year road tax….. I just don’t get this ecology based argument.

 

[nilagin]

The big oil industry get massive amount of subsidies.
https://www.theguardian.com/environ...er-year-on-fossil-fuel-subsidies-abolish-them

So to do what you propose, we should also remove all subsidies, remove all politics, remove all taxes and add carbon penalties, toxic-air penalties, unethical labour penalties to get real representation of each types of car's carbon footprint.

So does America subsidise the world's fossil fuel industry or is it just It's own? If it is It's own it won't have any effect on us.

 

[nilagin]

Tesla Model 3 UK orders to start next week (1st or 2nd May) Still no confirmation on prices although Standard Model is expected to start at £33k.

 

[Deleted member 49549]

How cheap have electric car leases got to over the past year or two? ie, what's the lowest monthly cost including any up-fromt fees?

 

[wave01]

I keep saying this until electric cars can do 500 miles on a charge with the a/c running, get me back on the road in 10 minutes and to Spain in 2 days they are not there yet.

 

[broc]

I keep saying this until electric cars can do 500 miles on a charge with the a/c running, get me back on the road in 10 minutes and to Spain in 2 days they are not there yet.

and towing a caravan for me

 

[wyx087]

I keep saying this until electric cars can do 500 miles on a charge with the a/c running, get me back on the road in 10 minutes and to Spain in 2 days they are not there yet.

So on your trip to Spain, you drive at constant speed of 27mph and only stop moving once for 5min to refuel?
(1000 miles London to Madrid, 8am day 1 to 9pm day 2)

Let's be realistic with our requirements. Do you never stop for comfort break? Does your comfort break only ever take 10min? Do you not stop for food? Do you really drive that 500 miles non-stop?

Tesla Model 3 UK orders to start next week (1st or 2nd May) Still no confirmation on prices although Standard Model is expected to start at £33k.

I won't bet on it, £33k is too low to be realistic for UK OTR price. Remember, in the US, $35k is before tax.

The base model 3 would around £40k for the standard range plus model with heated vegan-leather seats and autopilot bundled in.

Unlike Ford, Tesla doesn't really sell poverty spec cars.

 

[nilagin]

I won't bet on it, £33k is too low to be realistic for UK OTR price. Remember, in the US, $35k is before tax.

The base model 3 would around £40k for the standard range plus model with heated vegan-leather seats and autopilot bundled in.

Unlike Ford, Tesla doesn't really sell poverty spec cars.

The £33k was Musk's estimation. The US price equates to less than £30k but there will obviously be import fees.
When Ford sells American cars in the UK the $ sign is changed for a £ sign, but the numbers are approximately the same. No reason for a Tesla to be any different.


Musk is now enticing Tesla owners to rent their cars out as driverless tubers (when allowed). Latest models come with full automation ( just requires enabling) older models can be adapted by replacing their Autopilot.
Musk reckons owners could earn themselves $30k a year. A good idea as an investment and sole purpose for the Car, but there is no way I would be using my own car as such.

 

[wave01]

I think I drive safely. my journey goes something like this. I drive for 2 hours my wife then drives for 2 Hours we have a break and then do the same and by then its time for a night stop. Spanish and French roads are not as congested as ours so using keeping up a good average speed is fairly easy. If you want to pay tolls then those roads are even less congested.

 

[wyx087]

The £33k was Musk's estimation. The US price equates to less than £30k but there will obviously be import fees.
When Ford sells American cars in the UK the $ sign is changed for a £ sign, but the numbers are approximately the same. No reason for a Tesla to be any different.


Musk is now enticing Tesla owners to rent their cars out as driverless tubers (when allowed). Latest models come with full automation ( just requires enabling) older models can be adapted by replacing their Autopilot.
Musk reckons owners could earn themselves $30k a year. A good idea as an investment and sole purpose for the Car, but there is no way I would be using my own car as such.

I agree, using the same conversion as Ford, a $35k car would never be £33k as you have read elsewhere. It'll be around £40k, as the cheapest Model 3 is currently $39.5k in the US.

The base $35k version was on sale for a while, just like base Model S that no one actually orders. But looking at the specs, £40k gets a lot of car, comparable (with similar options ticked) BMW/Merc costs similar. But as with other EV's, Tesla has ultra low running costs.


I floated the idea of renting out our Skoda on car-club websites to my wife, she doesn't like the idea.
I, too, would not want to rent out my car like this, especially for a car that I worked hard to save up. Well, may be when driving pleasure wears off after 5 years, rent out old car to help pay for the new one?

This is what I like about Tesla's, everything is built-in, only a software unlock away. It gives second hand buyer like myself more options, rather than wait months for the right spec car to come along.

 

[nilagin]

I agree, using the same conversion as Ford, a $35k car would never be £33k as you have read elsewhere. It'll be around £40k, as the cheapest Model 3 is currently $39.5k in the US.

The base $35k version was on sale for a while, just like base Model S that no one actually orders. But looking at the specs, £40k gets a lot of car, comparable (with similar options ticked) BMW/Merc costs similar. But as with other EV's, Tesla has ultra low running costs.

Tesla had around 518k preorders for the Model 3. By August 17, that number fell by around 63k. An entry level car of $35k was promised and as a means to get onto the EV ladder I would think a high number of people would have been wanting one. But the $35k model has only just been announced ready for production/supply this year but Tesla have been messing about with prices and specs over the last couple of months and enticing customers to spend more and not buy the base model.

 

[wyx087]

Tesla had around 518k preorders for the Model 3. By August 17, that number fell by around 63k. An entry level car of $35k was promised and as a means to get onto the EV ladder I would think a high number of people would have been wanting one. But the $35k model has only just been announced ready for production/supply this year but Tesla have been messing about with prices and specs over the last couple of months and enticing customers to spend more and not buy the base model.

If you look at the difference between base-$35k car and the next one up, a $37.5k car, it's clear which one is best buy. For $2500 increase in price, you get 10% more range, heated vegan-leather seats, lots more feature for infotainment, etc. Then, they bundled Autopilot with every car, which means cheapest car now cost $39.5k.

Hardly messing about with price and specs when you get "first edition", Leaf 2.zero or other limited editions all the time. Skoda Octavia has gotten many changes during its production run, including missing AEB radar for early 2013 cars despite advertised as such, due to sensor shortage at the time. Yet, it's not in the news, only noticed in forums. On the Leaf, some Leaf have unconfigurable auto-mirror-folding, wearing out its motor, my doesn't, no explanation given why the difference.

Worst still, two people walking into two different dealerships buying the exact same car could end up paying different prices. Whereas Tesla's methods are more transparent and fairer.

 

[nilagin]

If you look at the difference between base-$35k car and the next one up, a $37.5k car, it's clear which one is best buy. For $2500 increase in price, you get 10% more range, heated vegan-leather seats, lots more feature for infotainment, etc. Then, they bundled Autopilot with every car, which means cheapest car now cost $39.5k.

Hardly messing about with price and specs when you get "first edition", Leaf 2.zero or other limited editions all the time. Skoda Octavia has gotten many changes during its production run, including missing AEB radar for early 2013 cars despite advertised as such, due to sensor shortage at the time. Yet, it's not in the news, only noticed in forums. On the Leaf, some Leaf have unconfigurable auto-mirror-folding, wearing out its motor, my doesn't, no explanation given why the difference.

Worst still, two people walking into two different dealerships buying the exact same car could end up paying different prices. Whereas Tesla's methods are more transparent and fairer.

There is a lot of difference between model updates and special editions during a car's production run and announcing a model one month and two months later changing the spec and prices. This all at the time of the decision to close dealerships and move to more online sales then changing the decision again. Seems more a case of suddenly realising that they couldn't afford to sell as cheaply as $35k.

 

[MatBin]

Worst still, two people walking into two different dealerships buying the exact same car could end up paying different prices. Whereas Tesla's methods are more transparent and fairer.

I think most people would quite like that idea, let's be honest most of us don't really want to haggle, we go in to a shop, see an item at a price and pay that price (in general), can you imagine getting to the checkout at Sainsbury, Lidl, Waitrose (take you pick ;-) ) and haggling a new price. Why it's expected at car dealers I don't know, however, what does Tesla do in regard to trade-ins, haggle?

 

[nilagin]

Tesla Model X v Jaguar i Pace v Audi e torn.
https://www.topgear.com/car-news/big-reads/ev-test-audi-e-tron-vs-tesla-model-x-vs-jaguar-i-pace

 

[mstphoto]

I recently traded my diesel Sportage for a petrol Vitara.
Suzuki don't do diesel nowadays - a choice of only 2 engines, 1.0 Boosterjet and a 1.4 Boosterjet

I also drive a diesel motorhome as most of them are.
Can't imagine what mpg I'd get if it was petrol

 

[Sw33ty]

End of the day, it's your personal choice, no one can make you buy one type of car or another. But please don't spread false information based on your outdated assumptions.

There is loads of info out there about the costs & carbon foot prints of making the batteries for EV's so it's not false info, ok you like your Nissan Leaf but in a way you are trying to tell everyone that they should switch over to an EV but there are down sides to them & as a time served mechanic I know first hand how bad the build quality of Nissan's are due to working on them & also from owning 2. Yes at the end of the day I will buy what ever I like & i'm used to the negative comments as 4x4's were the worst thing ever 10 years ago yet all the new crossovers & fake 4x4's are fine now but back then I got slated for having one even through I used it as the family motor but it was also used for what it was meant for going off road but in 2008 people funny enough were very happy for me owning one as I towed them out of 4ft deep flood water & during the winters of 2009 & 10 again people were very pleased I had one when I was towing them through 2ft plus deep snow which tbh you aren't going to be able to do in an EV. Diesel engines will happily run on bio fuel ( a % of it is mixed in with modern diesel these day) or they can run fine on vegetable oil fine

 

[wyx087]

however, what does Tesla do in regard to trade-ins, haggle?

I don't know, I'll let you know if I decide to trade in my Skoda for a new Model 3

Tesla Model X v Jaguar i Pace v Audi e torn.
https://www.topgear.com/car-news/big-reads/ev-test-audi-e-tron-vs-tesla-model-x-vs-jaguar-i-pace

I came to the same conclusion: as an ICE replacement, you have to go for Tesla.
Everything else cost almost the same price but you don't get access to extra infrastructure, so in the end, you are still tied to your home charger.

A friend of mine has a 2015 Model S and a newer Lexus large SUV hybrid. Guess which car he took holidaying in Europe recently?
He took the Model S, it has first-gen Autopilot, free supercharging and more carrying capacity thanks to pre-FL Model S large front-boot. He said the Supercharger network has improved a lot first buying his car, driving long distance was super easy.