Car buyers should have 'long, hard think' about diesel

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I think the electric car enthusiasts just don't understand the basic issues. The 1st is that electricity storage density is still far behind ICE fuel storage density so you have to choose between range and carrying capacity:
The big drawback with the Ford Focus Electric was lack of cargo space. As a gas car converted to run on electricity, the main battery pack was packaged under the liftgate reducing hatch cargo space by 39 percent, to just 14.5 cubic feet.
(from Byker28i's reference)

The 2nd difficulty is that more than 40% of potential owners simply have no practical way to charge a car because they live in homes without off road parking. If the technology existed to recharge an electric car as quickly as you can refill an ICE car this would not be a significant problem but that seems to be a long way off.

The 3rd problem is pricing. Electric cars are currently sold as premium items and seem to have poor resale values. This is not an issue for the early adopter market but that is tiny compared to the whole. Unless ICE cars have their prices inflated by taxation (not a strategy I see any British government wishing to deploy) or electric cars receive very large subsidies I see no obvious way for them to become more than a niche market item.
 
I think the electric car enthusiasts just don't understand the basic issues. The 1st is that electricity storage density is still far behind ICE fuel storage density so you have to choose between range and carrying capacity: (from Byker28i's reference)

The 2nd difficulty is that more than 40% of potential owners simply have no practical way to charge a car because they live in homes without off road parking. If the technology existed to recharge an electric car as quickly as you can refill an ICE car this would not be a significant problem but that seems to be a long way off.

The 3rd problem is pricing. Electric cars are currently sold as premium items and seem to have poor resale values. This is not an issue for the early adopter market but that is tiny compared to the whole. Unless ICE cars have their prices inflated by taxation (not a strategy I see any British government wishing to deploy) or electric cars receive very large subsidies I see no obvious way for them to become more than a niche market item.
The 4th problem is lack of choice, not everyone wants to be a martyr to the 'green' cause & give up their 'affordable' but stylish cars they are used to driving. For many people car ownership is more than just a means of getting from A to B by the cheapest means.
 
Can't find any current hot UK deals for Nissan Leaf but using Google I found quotes for a Leaf at £2995 deposit and £333 a month to lease where as a similar size ice medium sized family hatchback was £1575 and £175 a month both from same lease company.
The cheapest Leaf deal I could find was £3187 deposit and £245 per month. None of those Leaf quotes even come close to what can be had with the ice option.
You obviously didn't look very hard:
https://www.hotukdeals.com/deals/ni...9-deposit-199-per-month-for-24-months-2630344
https://www.hotukdeals.com/deals/nissan-leaf-teckna-198pm-2yrs-199-deposit-inc-gap-ins-2623815
https://www.hotukdeals.com/deals/br...-7000-pounds-4-avaliable-5th-jan-2016-2357210
https://www.hotukdeals.com/deals/ni...posit-129pm-2-year-pcp-at-trentonhull-2165948

Yes the diesel engine is the subject of this thread, but just like the originator of the thread, you are of the misconception that the latest diesel engines produce high or even moderate amounts of pollution, when in fact they are quite low.
They produce infinitely more road-side pollution than EV's. :LOL:

Lets say your Leaf is worth £5k as a used EV, when more " second hand longer range EV come to market" your Leaf is going to drop in value because if I can buy your Leaf for £5k or I can buy a longer range EV for similar cost, why would I buy the Leaf? Unless it is significantly cheaper it's not going to sell.
The thing is, in 2-3 years time when the 6-7 years old Leaf is supposed to worth £5k, 2-3 years old current-gen more-range EV (that are asking £30-40k now) will be asking £15k or more. There is going to be a constant gap between early short range EV and long range cars. Yet as public becomes more knowledgeable regarding EV's, less worried about its range, these early EV are perfect local runabout. So I don't see Leaf resale value dropping as quickly as similarly priced diesel today.

Edit: just checked:
2014 Leaf price in today's market: ~£8500
2016 Euro 6 diesel: £7000 for a high mileage example (Ibiza, Focus, Giulietta, Golf), £8000 for a better condition one with ~70k on the clock.
Which one will depreciate quicker?

I'm sorry but in several replies you have stated it's cheaper to run an EV, it isn't and you have also stated that too (in a reply to me), so which is it cheaper or not, you cant have it both ways.
Comparing the total lifetime cost of a new EV to a new ICE of similar type, performance, quality etc (although as far as am aware 3 series BMW don't leak into their boots when the lid is raised, so similar quality to a 3 series BM, maybe not) has been stated by you to be similar and the only justification is to buy because of roadside pollution (which is admirable but doesn't negate the total cost of ownership), again stated by you.
Your EV might be cheaper to run but are you comparing lifetime costs against a similar vehicle, probably not.

Fact is any EV is not cheaper in terms of lifetime ownership against a similar ICE vehicle, you cannot justify an EV on financial terms alone.

As for Tesla being affordable I think you suffer much like politicians, not everyone earns a London salary or has disposable income like Londoners, for some one car is all they can afford and a cheap one at that i.e. less than £20K new, so most (all?) new EV are outside of their budget which is why ICE still works for most people. Not everyone wants a car on PCP so don't quote monthly "purchase" price either as making them affordable.

Fact is new EV aren't affordable to the masses and until they are it is one of a number of factors which will slow their adoption as mass individual/family transport.
I'm not sure you are fully understanding this. Total cost of ownership = cost of depreciation + running cost.
Total cost of ownership is similar in most cases, could be cheaper in an EV.
Cost of depreciation in EV may be more due to higher purchasing cost, so at same % residual value, EV would depreciate slightly more.
Running cost of EV is vastly cheaper. 10p/mile on a 55mpg vs 3p/mile in an EV.

So when compare like-for-like, £36k e-Niro vs £27k Niro hybrid, you only need 128k miles on fuel costs (ignoring service cost for now), well within lifetime of both vehicles.

Fact is, EV is cheaper in terms of lifetime cost against similar ICE vehicle. You can justify EV on financial terms alone.
A Tesla Model S would make lots of financial sense than likes of 5 series or E class due to low running cost. Thus in relative turns, making the Tesla affordable.

Then, due to lower absolute depreciation, second hand EV makes an even better proposition.


Interesting, Is that supercharges only, as their map lists 7Kw Tesla Connectors in ones and twos. I.e. Near me Membury services have 8 every side, but thats 15 miles in the wrong direction, the next super charger on route to south wales is at the services at Bridgend, another 8 there. Other than that it's single or dual 7Kw

Infrastructure is everything to encourage EV takeup, as is lower cost, otherwise we'll be stuck with EV's being suitable for small journeys only, for those with driveways and/or large pockets
Yes, superchargers only. As I am looking for EV to replace my ICE car, the only viable option is Tesla at the moment due to complete lack of DC quick charging infrastructure for all other manufacturers. Anyone can charge at home don't really need to consider destination charging near their home.
 
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I think the electric car enthusiasts just don't understand the basic issues. The 1st is that electricity storage density is still far behind ICE fuel storage density so you have to choose between range and carrying capacity: (from Byker28i's reference)

The 2nd difficulty is that more than 40% of potential owners simply have no practical way to charge a car because they live in homes without off road parking. If the technology existed to recharge an electric car as quickly as you can refill an ICE car this would not be a significant problem but that seems to be a long way off.

The 3rd problem is pricing. Electric cars are currently sold as premium items and seem to have poor resale values. This is not an issue for the early adopter market but that is tiny compared to the whole. Unless ICE cars have their prices inflated by taxation (not a strategy I see any British government wishing to deploy) or electric cars receive very large subsidies I see no obvious way for them to become more than a niche market item.
1st issue is true and I agree, it doesn't make sense to carry hundred kWh or more battery "just in case" you need to drive somewhere. But we must change our view, people don't really need 500 miles of range. The DC quick charging infrastructure is key to EV long distance travel, not its range.

2nd issue is again, charging infrastructure. This time the slower destination charging while parked. I think due to the sheer number of parking spaces unfortunately those living in older flats or cottages (with 60amp fuses) will be at an disadvantage during the transition, unable to take advantage of incentives offered for EV's.

3rd issue isn't really an issue, when you consider how cheap they are to recharge. 10p/mile in 55mpg diesel vs 3p/mile in EV. See middle of my previous post.

The 4th problem is lack of choice, not everyone wants to be a martyr to the 'green' cause & give up their 'affordable' but stylish cars they are used to driving. For many people car ownership is more than just a means of getting from A to B by the cheapest means.
The lack of choice is what really grinds my gears. If we had 80 miles Nissan Leaf EV and 80 miles Ford Focus in the US back in 2011, 160 miles Renault Zoe in 2016. Why isn't there more choices of 150+ miles EV in 2019??


Genuine question though, why does manufacturers see range extended EV as a dead-end?
I feel they are the perfect stepping stone to full EV. They have enough useful EV range to be worth well, and not have to rely on the horrible charging infrastructure for long journey. But BMW i3 now no longer sells their range extended version of i3. Vauxhall Ampera is no longer for sale. All plug-in hybrids are now ICE powered with a small battery and relatively weaker electric motor.
 
I'm not sure you are fully understanding this. Total cost of ownership = cost of depreciation + running cost.
Total cost of ownership is similar in most cases, could be cheaper in an EV.
Cost of depreciation in EV may be more due to higher purchasing cost, so at same % residual value, EV would depreciate slightly more.
Running cost of EV is vastly cheaper. 10p/mile on a 55mpg vs 3p/mile in an EV.

So when compare like-for-like, £36k e-Niro vs £27k Niro hybrid, you only need 128k miles on fuel costs (ignoring service cost for now), well within lifetime of both vehicles.

Fact is, EV is cheaper in terms of lifetime cost against similar ICE vehicle. You can justify EV on financial terms alone.
A Tesla Model S would make lots of financial sense than likes of 5 series or E class due to low running cost. Thus in relative turns, making the Tesla affordable.

128k miles is break even point? And that is pretty much guesswork, things rarely work out in real life as they do on paper, but just assuming things do for a moment. How many people actually own their vehicles for 128k miles, at 12K average per year you'd need to own the vehicle for 10 years and you might break even, Ev's are not viable on costs alone (as you admitted several posts back - to me)

And I'm not getting it???? A Tesla S is affordable to whom??? Certainly not Mr & Mrs Joe Average or there would be hundreds/thousands of them running around, their owners clearly able to afford bigger and better lifestyle due to the savings they are making by owning an S model, dream on. Odd thing is the UK best selling car for many a year is the Fiesta, followed I believe by the Focus, er total cost of ownership probably has something to do with it and people not keeping them for 128K miles.
 
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Again, you (and many people) are not seeing the big picture.

128k miles to break even on fuel cost alone. But if the price difference is less, for example, owning the car for a shorter period (eg. own 3 years and you are likely to only need to off-set £4500 out of the £9000 price difference), or buying the car second hand, you only need to drive a percentage of that 128k miles.

With regard to affordability of Tesla. Mr & Mrs Joe Average is not going to buy a 5 series or E class either are they? But IF they are able to afford such luxury at such price, a E-class for example, the Model S is comparable and could be even cheaper if the numbers work in their favour (best case cost scenario for EV: drive 70-80% of battery capacity every day)


EV are viable on combination of cost, convenience, performance, zero local pollution and green credentials. There is always some minor point to counter each one, but end of the day, the combination of all above makes EV an excellent vehicle to own...... As long as you can charge at home.
 
As long as you can charge at home.


This is (currently) the main sticking point for many. We're lucky in that we can (and do) have an on-drive charger so we don't have the problem.

Would I have a Leaf as our ONLY car? Probably not - the MX-5 is too nice on a sunny day! I could live without my XF on a day to day basis but would need to rent something if/when we needed to do round trips over 70 miles or so with 3 or more people on board. NOT giving up my bike(s) though but having seen one of the latest Zeros, I could be tempted by an electric bike - outperforms my 1200 Bobber and has a longer range on a "tankful"!
 
Again, you (and many people) are not seeing the big picture.

128k miles to break even on fuel cost alone. But if the price difference is less, for example, owning the car for a shorter period (eg. own 3 years and you are likely to only need to off-set £4500 out of the £9000 price difference), or buying the car second hand, you only need to drive a percentage of that 128k miles.

With regard to affordability of Tesla. Mr & Mrs Joe Average is not going to buy a 5 series or E class either are they? But IF they are able to afford such luxury at such price, a E-class for example, the Model S is comparable and could be even cheaper if the numbers work in their favour (best case cost scenario for EV: drive 70-80% of battery capacity every day)


EV are viable on combination of cost, convenience, performance, zero local pollution and green credentials. There is always some minor point to counter each one, but end of the day, the combination of all above makes EV an excellent vehicle to own...... As long as you can charge at home.

And you too are missing the point, Tesla are not an affordable car for Mr & Mrs Joe Average so they will make virtually zero difference to pollution.
EV are not viable on cost (you admitted that many many posts previously. break even if lucky at some variable point)
EV are not viable on convenience
EV are viable on performance (so long as we don't compare range between "Fills")
EV are viable on local pollution (so long as we are happy to export our other pollution in terms of battery etc production)
EV are arguably justifiable on green credentials, many studies have shown that.

You want an EV, that's fine but you are justifying it to yourself on questionable logic at best.
 
You obviously didn't look very hard:
https://www.hotukdeals.com/deals/ni...9-deposit-199-per-month-for-24-months-2630344
https://www.hotukdeals.com/deals/nissan-leaf-teckna-198pm-2yrs-199-deposit-inc-gap-ins-2623815
https://www.hotukdeals.com/deals/br...-7000-pounds-4-avaliable-5th-jan-2016-2357210
https://www.hotukdeals.com/deals/ni...posit-129pm-2-year-pcp-at-trentonhull-2165948


They produce infinitely more road-side pollution than EV's. :LOL:


The thing is, in 2-3 years time when the 6-7 years old Leaf is supposed to worth £5k, 2-3 years old current-gen more-range EV (that are asking £30-40k now) will be asking £15k or more. There is going to be a constant gap between early short range EV and long range cars. Yet as public becomes more knowledgeable regarding EV's, less worried about its range, these early EV are perfect local runabout. So I don't see Leaf resale value dropping as quickly as similarly priced diesel today.

Edit: just checked:
2014 Leaf price in today's market: ~£8500
2016 Euro 6 diesel: £7000 for a high mileage example (Ibiza, Focus, Giulietta, Golf), £8000 for a better condition one with ~70k on the clock.
Which one will depreciate quicker?


I'm not sure you are fully understanding this. Total cost of ownership = cost of depreciation + running cost.
They are two to three and a half year old examples, so how are they relevant. Cheap leasing deals would have been available on ice cars too so you have proved nothing. The prices I have quoted are relevant as they are current deals and show the ice example is far cheaper than the Leaf, the cost of monthly fuel wouldn't even equalise the monthly cost let alone service costs equalizing the difference in deposit.

You are still hung up on roadside emissions. Euro 6.2 diesels produce almost zero Nox. Levels are so low they barely register and aren't detrimental to health. As for CO2 emissions, if all the diesel cars were euro 6.2 they would produce less than just one fossil fuelled power station.

Why are you comparing a 5yr old Leaf with no mileage mentionrd, against 3 year old high mileage cars? Hardly a fair comparison so impossible to predict further depreciation unless the Leaf has in excess of 100k miles on the clock.
 
Tesla are not an affordable car for Mr & Mrs Joe Average so they will make virtually zero difference to pollution.
EV are not viable on cost (you admitted that many many posts previously. break even if lucky at some variable point)
EV are not viable on convenience


OK, now convert Mr and Mrs Joe Average to Mr and Mrs Joseph A Cut-Above who are in the market for a 5 series/E Class etc.. Joseph commutes to a city where there is a congestion charge, waived for EVs. I reckon that FOR THEM, a Tesla will make a lot more sense and will be affordable.
 
OK, now convert Mr and Mrs Joe Average to Mr and Mrs Joseph A Cut-Above who are in the market for a 5 series/E Class etc.. Joseph commutes to a city where there is a congestion charge, waived for EVs. I reckon that FOR THEM, a Tesla will make a lot more sense and will be affordable.
But the Model 3 was promised to be an affordable EV for the masses, not the few that would put the car at around £25k for it's size not the £40k+ before subsidy that is being asked.
 
Still more available to the people than any current Ford offering...
 
Still more available to the people than any current Ford offering...
Availability makes no difference if not affordable though. For the people who want one but can't afford one, they may just as well be unavailable. As they are still producing preorders and not current orders, technically they are unavailable.
 
A Tesla Model S would make lots of financial sense than likes of 5 series or E class due to low running cost. Thus in relative turns, making the Tesla affordable.

Then, due to lower absolute depreciation, second hand EV makes an even better proposition.

Out of interest which 5 Series are you comparing the Tesla Model S to?

A 530d M-Sport xdrive with a few extra's can be had new for £20k less than the cheapest Tesla.
 
Out of interest which 5 Series are you comparing the Tesla Model S to?

A 530d M-Sport xdrive with a few extra's can be had new for £20k less than the cheapest Tesla.
Is that list price or discounted price? If list price it could be cheaper still with a bit of haggling, where as there is no haggling on the Tesla price.
 
Availability makes no difference if not affordable though. For the people who want one but can't afford one, they may just as well be unavailable. As they are still producing preorders and not current orders, technically they are unavailable.


Joseph will probably be wanting a Model S rather than a 3 and that IS available.

Even a Model 3 is available to pre-order - where can I put a deposit down an a Ford equivalent?
 
BMW site configuration. Build your BMW. Just picked the most expensive diesel engine model with 4 wheel drive, added tech pack and some other option.
 
Joseph will probably be wanting a Model S rather than a 3 and that IS available.

Even a Model 3 is available to pre-order - where can I put a deposit down an a Ford equivalent?
Most expensive Ford available in the UK is considerably cheaper than a Model S too. I haven't included the GT as the order books are full.

There's over 400 (475 in 2017) buildings spread across the UK, most will probably happily take your deposit.
 
For a Ford EV with similar performance to a Model S
 
Most people buy with finance these days. The sticker price is irrelevant. It's the monthly payments after they've traded in their old car that matter. That dictates affordability more than anything. EVs were more affordable a couple of years ago.

Bottom line is do you want to be in a confined space with that clean diesel running or an EV? I know which I'd choose.
 
Most people buy with finance these days. The sticker price is irrelevant. It's the monthly payments after they've traded in their old car that matter. That dictates affordability more than anything.
Bottom line is do you want to be in a confined space with that clean diesel running or an EV? I know which I'd choose.

As Ev's are more expensive that can go a long way to making the monthly finance payment as well as the deposit more expensive.
Personally I will be sticking to petrol. Might be buying an additional new petrol car soon and plans for a hybrid petrol in a few years.
 
You never stipulated that before though.


I thought you might have been bright enough to figure it out for yourself. Guess I must have been wrong. Sorry.
 
I thought you might have been bright enough to figure it out for yourself. Guess I must have been wrong. Sorry.
Performance has nothing to do with affordability though which was the subject matter. If a BMW 530d is in excess of £20k cheaper than a Tesla S, that also throws in the possibility of someone that can afford the BMW, still can't afford the Tesla. Also why would someone be commuting by into a city with a congestion charge when it would likely be easier to do so by train as the presence of a congestion charge would imply the roads would be congested. Plus any performance advantage of the Tesla would be useless on congested roads so it would be easy to assume that any performance advantage wouldn't come into the choice of car.
If you were clever, you would have thought of all that. Care to try and move the goalposts again? ;)
 
Something else that has yet to be factored into ownership cost of EV is battery life and replacement costs, it is widely known that a new battery pack for an EV is very expensive and currently it is unknown how long they last. Conservative estimates are 500 charge cycles, so assuming I use one most days that will be 2 years ownership, be generous say 3 then it's duff and I am facing a huge bill, I believe something like 30% or more of the original car's price, factor that in and cost of ownership is taking a big hit in the wrong direction. Even if I could sell the old batteries I doubt they would fetch 10% of the car's original price. Disposal of old batteries is hardly going to be 'green' either.
 
Vast majority of EVs have 7 or 8 year battery warranty. It's not an issue. The degradation is mainly seen in the Nissan Leaf. Rest of them hardly suffer from it. Also manufacturers make the batteries a bit bigger and use sophisticated management systems to minimise that degradation.

Most of the batteries can be reused for static storage.
 
Tesla have recently come up with the option of replacing just part of the battery pack instead of all of it as they say cells will degrade a different rates.
They quote $5-6k to replace just part of a battery pack. Going by the cost of a Tesla 3 in America and the UK, that puts the cost at over £5-6k. Apart from the high cost for replacing just part of the pack it remains to be seen how long the rest of the pack will now last, as with most things where only part is replaced instead of all the rest of the old parts are weakened and likely to fail soon after. As the old part is failing, more reliance is put on the new part and subsequently shortens it's life, it could all prove to be a false economy.

I would also be interested in how long the electric motors are expected to last and at what cost for a replacement.
 
The original owner of your car probably never saw those benefits.

Back in 2015-2017, you can get a Nissan Leaf on lease for £199. Just search on hotukdeals.
They are two to three and a half year old examples, so how are they relevant.
Just disproving your baseless speculation with real data.

And you too are missing the point, Tesla are not an affordable car for Mr & Mrs Joe Average so they will make virtually zero difference to pollution.
EV are not viable on cost (you admitted that many many posts previously. break even if lucky at some variable point)
EV are not viable on convenience
EV are viable on performance (so long as we don't compare range between "Fills")
EV are viable on local pollution (so long as we are happy to export our other pollution in terms of battery etc production)
EV are arguably justifiable on green credentials, many studies have shown that.

You want an EV, that's fine but you are justifying it to yourself on questionable logic at best.
Cost have been calculated many times, it works out about equal most of the times and could be much cheaper.
Convenience is huge, never have to spend 10min away from daily routine to fill up the car anymore. It's no different to plugging in smart phones. I was one of the first to adopt the very original iPhone among peers, there were similar "it only lasts a day!" outcry. But now everyone is used to plugging them in overnight.
Performance goes hand in hand with convenience, if you always have 30% left at the end of the day, why not enjoy the car's performance? At minimal cost :)
 
Something else that has yet to be factored into ownership cost of EV is battery life and replacement costs, it is widely known that a new battery pack for an EV is very expensive and currently it is unknown how long they last. Conservative estimates are 500 charge cycles, so assuming I use one most days that will be 2 years ownership, be generous say 3 then it's duff and I am facing a huge bill, I believe something like 30% or more of the original car's price, factor that in and cost of ownership is taking a big hit in the wrong direction. Even if I could sell the old batteries I doubt they would fetch 10% of the car's original price. Disposal of old batteries is hardly going to be 'green' either.
https://www.speakev.com/threads/c-c-taxis-100-000-mile-nissan-leaf-full-battery-included.8804/
This early Nissan Leaf is able to do 100k miles without noticeable battery degradation. I know Leaf wouldn't do 100 miles on a full charge cycle, but let's be optimistic and simply our calculations. That means they have done 1000 charge cycles without noticeable battery degradation.

Got any source on your estimate?

All battery in current cars are warrantied for 8 years for degradation. You must be driving over 200k miles each year to require replacement every 3 years. I'm sorry for your state of health sitting that long.

I would also be interested in how long the electric motors are expected to last and at what cost for a replacement.
1 million miles according to Tesla. Their battery pack replacement was to enable the car to reach that 1 million miles. Over current ICE car timescale (10-15 years, 150k+miles), battery pack replacement is not needed.
Unless you have been living under a rock, everything uses some form of electric motors. The ones that are well built (not cheap ones in toys) tend to last beyond the machine it is in. Electric motors are highly reliable.
 
Just disproving your baseless speculation with real data.
You haven't disproved anything all you have provided is old cheap deals for a Nissan Leaf. Where is the evidence to suggest they are cheaper or at least equal to deals on other cars at the time?
I have however provided the figures for actual current deals on both a mid range five door medium sized family hatchback and the cheapest deal from the same lease company for the cheapest Leaf as well as the cheapest deal I could find for a Leaf and both are way more expensive for the Leaf and would never even get close to breaking even let alone costing less by the end of the lease term.
 
128k miles to break even on fuel cost alone.

OK as you know, I looked at a Tesla S secondhand last year, around the £50-60k price for secondhand, ideally to replace the MX-5 I currently use for commuting, but that was around 14K a year mileage. I just couldn't make the figures work, it was going to cost me around £20k for the privilege of driving clean and slower over the lifetime of the car. We tend to keep vehicles for around 10 years, so figured a battery pack change into that.
Add to that I'd need to keep the diesel estate for the travel to/from Pembroke.

Instead I've reduced my mileage costs by 20% by working longer each day and having fridays off
 
I know Leaf wouldn't do 100 miles on a full charge cycle
And there's the problem.

I have solar panels on my house. At the end of this month I'm adding battery storage as well. I can park my car on my drive. I'm in a very good place to adopt an EV, and was looking at second hand cars around £6000, which means Zoe or Leaf.

Part of the reason for the change is much more frequent trips to my parents with my dad having been diagnosed with heart failure. It's a 110 mile journey. The EVs I can buy won't do that journey on the M4 / M25 on a single charge. In my petrol car I can do it in about an hour and 40 minutes. I never, ever stop on a journey that short, I certainly don't want to be forced to sit in the hellhole of Membury services for half an hour twiddling my thumbs while waiting for my car to refill and drinking rubbish, overpriced service station tea.

Get affordable s/h cars around the £5,000-£7,000 mark with a range of 200 miles, which is about where I would take a break on a motorway journey, and I'll start to get interested. And no battery leasing!


Currently I'm looking at 7-8 year old Peugeot 308 diesels, which will do 80mpg and can be had for under 4k.
 
Cost have been calculated many times, it works out about equal most of the times and could be much cheaper.
Convenience is huge, never have to spend 10min away from daily routine to fill up the car anymore. It's no different to plugging in smart phones. I was one of the first to adopt the very original iPhone among peers, there were similar "it only lasts a day!" outcry. But now everyone is used to plugging them in overnight.
Performance goes hand in hand with convenience, if you always have 30% left at the end of the day, why not enjoy the car's performance? At minimal cost :)

If it fits your journey profile and if you have a driveway you can put the car in to plug it in ;)
 
Out of interest which 5 Series are you comparing the Tesla Model S to?

A 530d M-Sport xdrive with a few extra's can be had new for £20k less than the cheapest Tesla.
You didn't use get a comparable car though, it's slower, less well equipped. Here's what I found:

Current cheapest Model S: £71k with AWD, 4s 0-60, basic Autopilot included, air suspension, heated seats all round, driver setting profile, premium audio, cabin air filtration, panoramic roof, keyless entry.
I built a similar 5 series: £62k 540i with xdrive, 4.8s 0-60, no paint/seat/wheel extras (just like Tesla), "Comfort package" for elec fr seat with driver memory, keyless access and reversing assist camera, "Premium package" for a small sunroof and powered bootlid, "High-beam assist", "Concierge service", "Dynamic safety", "Seat heating front and rear", "Split-folding rear seats" (a £335 option!), "Driving Assistant Plus", "Active Cruise control with "stop and go" function", "Adaptive Suspension" (no air suspension available).

You haven't disproved anything all you have provided is old cheap deals for a Nissan Leaf. Where is the evidence to suggest they are cheaper or at least equal to deals on other cars at the time?
But it does show you that your statement was unfunded.
The original owner of your car probably never saw those benefits.
 
Get affordable s/h cars around the £5,000-£7,000 mark with a range of 200 miles, which is about where I would take a break on a motorway journey, and I'll start to get interested. And no battery leasing!

I was hoping the Tesla 3 would be 30K, maybe in the £15-20K price range after 3 years. With 250 mile range that would make it a real alternative for many.
Secondhand Zoe's and battery leasing work for a housewifes second family car doing local journeys on under 5K miles a year. After that the lease makes them unaffordable.
Leafs 100 mile range again work only if you do local-ish journeys. Our friends with one say they get around 80 miles in winter.

It'll come, eventually. The cheaper monthly bills (currently) are attractive, especially if I can charge for free at work. It's just the current technology that works is only in expensive cars, and route planning via chargers
 
And there's the problem.

I have solar panels on my house. At the end of this month I'm adding battery storage as well. I can park my car on my drive. I'm in a very good place to adopt an EV, and was looking at second hand cars around £6000, which means Zoe or Leaf.

Part of the reason for the change is much more frequent trips to my parents with my dad having been diagnosed with heart failure. It's a 110 mile journey. The EVs I can buy won't do that journey on the M4 / M25 on a single charge. In my petrol car I can do it in about an hour and 40 minutes. I never, ever stop on a journey that short, I certainly don't want to be forced to sit in the hellhole of Membury services for half an hour twiddling my thumbs while waiting for my car to refill and drinking rubbish, overpriced service station tea.

Get affordable s/h cars around the £5,000-£7,000 mark with a range of 200 miles, which is about where I would take a break on a motorway journey, and I'll start to get interested. And no battery leasing!


Currently I'm looking at 7-8 year old Peugeot 308 diesels, which will do 80mpg and can be had for under 4k.
Indeed, this is why I am pointing the blame for slow EV adoption at the car industry. There isn't enough choice available, not second hand and disapprovingly not even new cars this year. That's not mentioning lack of early infrastructure investment.

For ~£6000 200 miles second hand EV to appear, first, they have to be ubiquitous. Otherwise they would be like the Nissan Leaf, pushed high due to lack of supply to meet the local runabout second car demand.

You looking at a diesel also highlights the problem with ICE cars. We don't have much choice! It won't be clean Euro 6 as nilagin bangs on about, at that age, most cars would be a diesel. So the latest, greatest, cleanest Euro 6.2 won't make a dent until many years later, where cars like the one you will be driving goes off the road. It's a very very slow process.
Whereas when most people drives EV, a small % reduction in CO2 emission in national grid will massively reduce everyone's pollution overnight.

Lack of choice was the reason I bought a diesel Skoda. It is not involved with VW dieselgate. It was one of cheapest adaptive cruise control car available at the time. I looked hard for a petrol or hybrid, but I'd have to stretch to ~£15k.
 
Actually, qualifying all that, probably the cheap EV car with range will come from other manufacturers to start with, things like the Kia e-Niro (£28kish) or the Hyundai Kona (still £39K though), both with a claimed possible 280 mile range, which probably means 200 mile range in normal use.
 
https://www.speakev.com/threads/c-c-taxis-100-000-mile-nissan-leaf-full-battery-included.8804/
This early Nissan Leaf is able to do 100k miles without noticeable battery degradation. I know Leaf wouldn't do 100 miles on a full charge cycle, but let's be optimistic and simply our calculations. That means they have done 1000 charge cycles without noticeable battery degradation.

Got any source on your estimate?

All battery in current cars are warrantied for 8 years for degradation. You must be driving over 200k miles each year to require replacement every 3 years. I'm sorry for your state of health sitting that long.


1 million miles according to Tesla. Their battery pack replacement was to enable the car to reach that 1 million miles. Over current ICE car timescale (10-15 years, 150k+miles), battery pack replacement is not needed.
Unless you have been living under a rock, everything uses some form of electric motors. The ones that are well built (not cheap ones in toys) tend to last beyond the machine it is in. Electric motors are highly reliable.
Have Tesla tested the motors for a million miles? If so how. 1hrs running of an ICE on a dyno is equivalent to 50 miles. That's 20000 hrs or 833 days, possible but plausible?
I have worked in engineering for almost 40yrs and electric motors do fail. Plus you are introducing an element of some car drivers have no mechanical or electrical sympathy. I know for a fact that car manufacturers test their engines for durability for instances most people are unlikely to encounter. Do you know for sure that Tesla have carried out such extraordinary tests? I suspect other conventional car manufacturers will have done with their ev's but I am not so sure with Tesla as they won't have had prior experience of such things happening. For a company that takes a year or more to ramp up it's production for each new model, has to return 86% of its cars for rework before they can leave the factory and has poor build quality for such expensive cars, I certainly wouldn't have much confidence in them having done such extensive durability testing.
 
But it does show you that your statement was unfunded.
It doesn't even show my statement is unfounded, let alone unfunded.
You stated that deals on Leafs were similar to similar sized ice cars. You have only provided outdated figures for a Leaf. Where are the figures for ICE vehicles from the same time period? The current figures I have provided though actually prove my statement to be correct, the original Leaf owner won't get any cost benefit from buying the Leaf over a similar sized ice car.
 
Indeed, this is why I am pointing the blame for slow EV adoption at the car industry.
It's like groundhog day in here.
Electric cars predate ice cars. Car manufacturers have been developing Ev's for years but what is the point in selling low range vehicles which hardly anyone wants and make a loss into the bargain. Meanwhile car manufacturers continue to work in the background improving on range etc making the vehicles more worthwhile to the customer and themselves
 
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