Clients client didn't like the image, client can't pay me

What your client's client think and does is totally immaterial. Your contract is with your client and no one else.

Your T&Cs are quite clear. 100% is due from your client, whether they use the material or not - whether they like the material or not. This is not an issue.

You MUST write to them, briefly confirming the telephone conversation and re-iterating your terms (30 days whatever). Also end the letter stating that if you invoice is not settled in full within seven days of the date of your letter then the matter will be passed to your solicitor.

Some debt-recovery solicitors don't charge, or charge peanuts, for the initial letter. And that is probably all it will take.

But I strongly suggest a brief but firmly worded letter from you - asp.

John

p.s. my other business is in the debt business ;) call me if you wish
 
woooaa! Just seen page two :eek:

Your letter and the edits are far far too wordy. Keep to the bare minimum, don't mention the other party, don't mention the long long history. Just confirm the gist of the recent conversation and restate the fact that your invoice is payable in full and remains overdue.
 
In fact, thinking about it again, don't even mention the recent conversation. Just send a letter before action giving them x days to settle in full.
 
2blue4u said:
In fact, thinking about it again, don't even mention the recent conversation. Just send a letter before action giving them x days to settle in full.
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Couldn't agree more. (y) Ink jet cartidges are too expensive to go wasting ink ;)
 
2blue4u - if he ends up going through small claims court, he has technically done the short sharp money is due bit, and a longer letter now is the last chance to explain his position before proceedings. Our solicitors have always made us use this method, on the basis that you may have to be able to present your corrospondence to a judge and HE has to be in no doubt that you have given the defendent every opportunity and chance to respond. So far, its always worked when the non paying client is presented with whole scenario and their own part in their own 'downfall' - btw, we work in the motor trade, the hotbed of non paying clients and whingers :LOL: Anywhere else, a short letter may be just as effective ;)
 
LadyLens said:
2blue4u - if he ends up going through small claims court, he has technically done the short sharp money is due bit, and a longer letter now is the last chance to explain his position before proceedings. Our solicitors have always made us use this method, on the basis that you may have to be able to present your corrospondence to a judge and HE has to be in no doubt that you have given the defendent every opportunity and chance to respond. So far, its always worked when the non paying client is presented with whole scenario and their own part in their own 'downfall' - btw, we work in the motor trade, the hotbed of non paying clients and whingers :LOL: Anywhere else, a short letter may be just as effective ;)
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There is no great history to this. I deal with debt cases going back years....

The only document of note raised to date is the invoice. Simply restate the fact that it remains unpaid and must be settled within x days. Documents at this stage must be restricted to the bare facts. This is how debt specialist solicitors will handle it. Other solicitors will charge by the word..... :nono:
 
I agree, it's not at the stage where Pete needs to justify anything.

All they're saying, verbally, is they don't want to pay, he needs to tell them to pay. They haven't raised queries on terms, work quality, anything. If they do then a fuller response may be required.
 
Well we can all only advise on our own experience. The longer method has been used successfully by our business for several decades that I know of. Yes, the only valid 'document' is the invoice, BUT, they are questioning the work in as much as they dont want to pay because Their client doesnt like it. Plus, my worry would be that there are 3 different people involved, contacts, so whoever reads the letter needs to know exactly the chain of events that could land them with a summons.

Having said that, the onus is on them to find out and would advise Pete to go with whatever he feels comfortable with. Short sharp and to the point, or longer facts laying...either way, lets try and get him his money! ;)
 
With clients of this nature, why do you not include a clause whereby a discount of X% (5ish?) is deducted for payment within 14 days, and payment after 30 (i think thats what you said your terms were) incurs interest charges of X% per month, compounded.

Also, the long wordy letter is good to go to the MD, a short sharp letter ala Dods suggestion to your contact would be a good idea as well though, just so they have a confirmation with the other documents.

Hope this gets sorted.
 
There's no right and wrong way to do this. There is no pre-action protocol relating to debt cases, so a detailed letter of claim is not required. And most debt recovery solicitors will simply send a 2 line demand. But that's solicitors (or other debt recovery agents). At this stage, the idea is to try and get the debtor to see sense. A reasoned argument with reference to the relevant T&Cs may just to do that. If nothing else it shows the claimant is serious about pursuing the matter.

Getting very heavy as a 1st stage will probably just cause the debtor to put up a brick wall.
 
Ok well at least the letter and events have been fully written out for documentation reasons. If I don't hear back by 4pm Monday evening I'll send the short letter ala dod.

Regarding invoice ####. 3 weeks over due (because it was pay in 30 days and its been 7 weeks in total since I sent them). No rejection fee was agreed so payment in full in 7 days or you'll be hearing from my solicitors. Monday will be spent finding said solicitor I guess :)
 
Re: Invoice No. #### dated dd/mm/2007

TAKE NOTICE that according to our records the sum of £nnn is overdue for payment.

Unless payment is made to the above address within seven days Legal Action to recover the debt will be taken against you without further notice.

Copies of the outstanding invoices are attached.



Properly address it to the company – but mark if for the attention of the MD by name. If he isn't acquainted with the facts then let him make his own voyage of discovery.

Keep a paper copy. Send it by first class post.
 
sakura said:
and send it Recorded Delivery - so you know that it will get there - you know what the postal service is like sometimes:razz:
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That I do. Funnily enough the first set of CD's I sent them never arrived because of the post. So I sent them recorded. :D

Cheers 2blue.
 
It's not 'Recorded' any longer but 'Signed For'. Also, you should be aware that 'Signed For' mail often takes longer to arrive. There was a time when something sent 'Recorded' would almost be guaranteed to arrive next day. In my experience, 'Signed For' can take three working days. If you want a quick resolution and expect them to react quickly then use RM Special Delivery although I think that would be overkill in this case. If sending using the 'Signed For' service then you might wish to change the letter to read 14 days instead of seven.

The Court, not that it will get that far, only needs to know that it was sent by first class mail.
 
I think I'll send it signed for simply for record keeping. I know they'll have received it because I'm sure they'll claim they didn't.
 
I would use RM Special Delivery. A couple of quid to prove they got it would be worth it. I have a real downer on Recorded Delivery (which seems to be back again) as they lost my girlfriend's entry for Wildlife Photographer of the Year (claiming no-one was in at the Natural History Museum!). Sadly, the entry was original slides...

And I know it has been said before, they have to pay. I'm sure they charge a margain ontop of your fees to their client. They have a business of selling on your photos and have received a service of appropriate quality.
 
I'm with 2 blue on this one, my missus used to work for a car finance company in the arreas dept and most of the people involved were bang to rights by signing credit agreements with guarantors etc, in petes case, it is just an overdue payment (so far) using his own T&Cs, so bringing it to thier attention is the first step and threatening big guns straight away will as suggested make the company more hostile and possibly even ecourage them to let pete take it the full course.

What is a bit ominous though pete is the fact that they are actively seeking a new tog for the work, when you and them, know that you are more than capable of producing what they want even if they did not like your first attempts, this would tell me that they are severing any ties and possibly any intentions of paying your invoice without a scrap, but burning bridges by going for the jugular at the beginning of negotiations may backfire later on.
 
I think the other thing you could take from them looking for new togs is that they're not unhappy with your work but that they want to find some sucker who will cave into their demands to take less cash for the job.
 
petemc said:
I can't really afford a solicitor at the moment so I'll see what they come back with.
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I hate it when people don't pay for work, especially if thier happy with it.

This company comes highly reccommended, not had to use them yet.

http://www.debtrecoveryonline.com/

Hopefully they can help.

I totally agree with the majority, YOUR cliet was happy they should pay, not your fault THIER client wasn't happy. Did thier cliet supply a brief of the work required, thier cliets ever had any problems with the work before?

Good luck mate.

Failing the solicitor etc then I'm sure the site of TP forum gang at thier door will make them pay :bat: :bat: :bat:


:D
 
Send em a picture of Matty in his suspenders panties and a bra, They'll pay you double :D
 
The other thing niggling me with this is why didn't they give you the opportunity to reshoot? Assuming that you're probably a bit disappointed that the end client wasn't happy most people would come back and say "we've got a problem, how do we sort it?", not just say, we can't pay and we're going for another photographer :cautious:
 
paulc said:
What is a bit ominous though pete is the fact that they are actively seeking a new tog for the work, when you and them, know that you are more than capable of producing what they want even if they did not like your first attempts, this would tell me that they are severing any ties and possibly any intentions of paying your invoice without a scrap, but burning bridges by going for the jugular at the beginning of negotiations may backfire later on.
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My client liked them, at least they didn't say there was anything wrong with them so I assumed they liked them. Their client didn't. However it is very strange that they're actively seeking a photographer with my skills. I bet it is money related. I've never done a job for them where I haven't had money issues.

Marcel said:
Send em a picture of Matty in his suspenders panties and a bra, They'll pay you double :D
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1. I'd have to look at it again.
2. They're not *that* bad. Maybe if they ran over my hamster then yeah. ;)
 
petemc said:
I've argued with this client before and they say its not how they work.
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You call the shots from now on not them or anyone else.
YOU decide and in your list of rules & regs state that you require a deposit of , say ..% upfront.
99% of deposits are non-refundable if you have all the details down.
Then and if you get a "job" get the fee first, go do the brilliant job you can , and then get the rest later (30 days ).
YOU ARE PAID in reality, just the profit is awaiting ......which can be rescued in time.
MAKE YOUR OWN RULES:rules:
 
One thing I'm surprised no-one else has picked up on....Pete - don't conduct business by MSN Messenger - it's unprofessional and makes you look like you aren't a "proper" outfit IMO. Messenger and similar should be reserved for chatting with friends - thery are not business tools.

Sorry if that some across as harsh - jumped out at me though. I do hope you get somewhere with this company - they sound a fairly shoddy outfit by all accounts. Good luck Pete.
 
Witch said:
One thing I'm surprised no-one else has picked up on....Pete - don't conduct business by MSN Messenger - it's unprofessional and makes you look like you aren't a "proper" outfit IMO. Messenger and similar should be reserved for chatting with friends - thery are not business tools.

Sorry if that some across as harsh - jumped out at me though. I do hope you get somewhere with this company - they sound a fairly shoddy outfit by all accounts. Good luck Pete.
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a very good point - well made.
 
I've had the guy on my MSN list for years. I don't call him, he calls me. But since I tried email, I figured a quick msn might work. Didn't so I rang. I don't conduct business via MSN. I have 2 friends who occasionally offer me work via it. Its not something I actively use for business.
 
Pete. Its not easy when your young and in business to feel like your an equal to large businesses or even huge corporations but you are, (hang on strike the corp bit, ;)) ...but you are, in fact your decency and integrity shows itself to be above them as business equals.

Sometimes you need to remind your clients of these facts. ;)
 
I think the thing here too is that it's a lesson for everyone, Pro's, Am's wanting to be Pro's, etc - business is cut throat, and you have to be as firm as necessary whilst maintaining your own integrity, in dealing with anyone that could be considered a 'client'

And get EVERYTHING in writing. :rules:

Pete, regardless of outcome, thanks for posting this problem, because it's certainly the sort of thing others will come across at some point, so I personally think such discussions are very useful.
 
petemc said:
I've had the guy on my MSN list for years. I don't call him, he calls me. But since I tried email, I figured a quick msn might work. Didn't so I rang. I don't conduct business via MSN. I have 2 friends who occasionally offer me work via it. Its not something I actively use for business.
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Fair comment Pete. If you do end up sending the long letter to them though I personally would remove the reference to that contact. You could still mention that a conversation took place, but without explaining that it was via MSN perhaps.
 
LadyLens said:
Snip - Pete, regardless of outcome, thanks for posting this problem, because it's certainly the sort of thing others will come across at some point, so I personally think such discussions are very useful.
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Agreed!
 
I didn't hear from them today so I sent the letter. The brief you owe me money one.
 
sounds like they are giving you the run around hang in there pete. Im surprised there is no solicitors on this site who can help, we seem to have everyone else on here, from the other thread we even have frisbee champions.

Did you say it was 2 months before they came back to you saying they didnt like the images?? I dont think they have a leg to stand on if it is. You cant go to a shop and buy say a 1d mk2 and then take it back 8 weeks later saying you dont like it.
 
Yeah basically. 2 months after saying "Pay you on Friday" they say their client doesn't like the images and they can't pay the full amount. Nuts.
 
Pete - if they don't respond, send them a solicitors letter. There's a firm on the web that will send one for £3 with no obligation to use them to push a claim through if it fails.

I haven't read all of this thread, but my advice would be don't accept half - that's what they want to do, fob you off. The fact is, you did what you were asked, they owe you for that. If they don't like the photos that's tough. I've had a couple of recent situations where my photos have been stolen and I've invoiced them - eventually enough letters/pressure has done the job and they've paid in full.

Let me know if you want the web address of the solicitors firm and I'll find it. A mate used it when we had a fiasco with somebody not paying up and he received a cheque within a week.
 
Had to chuckle at this :

WTD229.gif


(Yes I know you pointed it out to those on IRC :p)
 
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