Clients client didn't like the image, client can't pay me

mobilevirgin said:
Yeah, ok, fair enough. I've had a bad day. Its been dealt with elsewhere now.

I'll admit to an over-reaction. For which I apologise.

I won't say anything else here. Those involved know how to get hold of me if they think its helpful.

MV
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Thanks :)
 
:( Spoke to the court. They said its now an order of the court. So I've got to write to them and get a letter before the judge to try and fix it. Its not a quality issue. Damn it! A photographer could say I didn't work to the brief which puts them in the right and they win. They said they would pay. It took 2 months to get back to me. 2 months to go "Um its not right" FFS! I think if I can't change this I might just pull out. They haven't won, I just screwed up.
 
I hope you get it straightened out, remember to check out UKLM as well.

I think the point you need to get across is that your client made the mistake.

Your client was happy with the shots to start with (so clearly you performed to the brief).
Their client later turned round and said they weren't happy.
Ergo your client didn't understand the brief from their client to start with - that's not your fault.
 
pxl8 said:
I hope you get it straightened out, remember to check out UKLM as well.

I think the point you need to get across is that your client made the mistake.

Your client was happy with the shots to start with (so clearly you performed to the brief).
Their client later turned round and said they weren't happy.
Ergo your client didn't understand the brief from their client to start with - that's not your fault.
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Hmm thats true. I was basically thinking of this for the letter...

Dear Judge <name>,
May I first just apologise if I am wasting any of the courts time. That is not my intention. I had previously spoken to a solicitor about this case and taken on board his advice but I was unprepared for the quality issue. I apologise for not speaking up about this at the time as I should have done. I spent the evening going over the hearing in my head, and I do not believe that there is any quality issue to debate in this case. I feel that to go to the trouble of hiring a photographer will be a waste of the courts time. I have provided the evidence to support this in the bundle, and I do apologise again for not bringing it up at the hearing. If you look in the bundle I provided on page 8 you will see that my client said "Brilliant mate! Have passed on the invoice to accounts." They were happy with the images and told me I was going to be paid. I'm sorry if I have added to the confusion in this matter, but you did read the case correctly as you said when we entered. It is simply about someone hiring someone to do a job and then not paying them for services rendered. If there was any quality issue then they had over 2 months to get back to me about it instead of saying that the invoice would be "paid tomorrow" (From page 10).

Thank you for your time.
 
Sounds good to me Pete, although I'm not sure about referring to your case material as a 'bundle'. It just doesn't sound very professional. Unless it's a legal technical term. :eek:

Panzer
 
Panzerbjorn said:
Sounds good to me Pete, although I'm not sure about referring to your case material as a 'bundle'. It just doesn't sound very professional. Unless it's a legal technical term. :eek:

Panzer
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It is. The judge called it that as did the solicitor I met with.
 
hang in there Pete
we're all rooting for you!
 
Yeah, bundle is the technical term. Surprised me too! You'd expect it to have some ridiculous latin name! :D

I'm not 100% sure on the letter Pete. As a lay person you're probably not as constrained by the same standards of letter-writing as someone in the legal profession (i.e what you should and shouldn't put in a letter to a judge.). They'll probably cut you some slack. But, if I were you, I'd run it by someone with some legal experience, just to be on the safe side.

As you say, its an important letter that could bring the case to a swift(er) conclusion, so its best to get it right!
 
yes, it's bundle. I'm surrounded by the chuffing things.

Get the letter right. Don't be too fussy about the body text as if it were perfect then the judge might think a solicitor wrote it. And probably chuck it in the bin. But take care over the correct address and salutation. Dear Sir (or Dear Madam) will usually suffice or Dear Judge (name). Do make sure that you correctly include any titles or decorations the judge may have.

Don't hesitate to phone the court and simply ask for guidance when writing to the judge. Also ask if you should be writing to the Court rather than the Judge. Although this is, essentially, the same thing.
 
How's this?

Dear District Judge ,

I am writing with regard the issues raised about the suitability of the photographs produced in relation to the case. Upon reflection I do not believe that it necessary to expend the time and money to hear the opinion of an independent photographer. My reasons for this are as follows:
I had previously worked with [guy-A] of [client] and on a few occasions and have on each occasion received extremely positive feedback for my work.

[client] has employed my services based on the style and standard of my work and this particular piece of work was no exception. [client] did not, other than a verbal &#8220;wide angle shots of interiors&#8221;, provide a brief or specific requirements for the photos I undertook the job using my established style and techniques. According to the Association of Photographers if a representative is present then rejection after the shoot on aesthetic grounds is unacceptable. [guy-B] did accompany me on the day. I have included a copy of the relevant information from this book. Having completed the job [client] responded favorably to the results (page 8 in the bundle) and acknowledged payment would be made on numerous occasions. The issue of suitability and style was raised by [client]&#8217;s own client some two months after [client] had been accepted my work. If they had a detailed brief that I was to adhere to then I should have been notified of any issues the moment they saw the photographs, which was the following Wednesday after the Friday photoshoot. (See page 7 of bundle)

Taking the above points into account I believe that the suitability & style of my work is not the matter in question. [client] has enjoyed my previous work and clearly considered that style was suitable by the very act of booking me. It was only later, when their own client took issue, did [client] reverse their decision about the suitability of my work and refuse payment. [client]&#8217;s states their own client felt the results weren&#8217;t suitable but as I was booked by [client] based on previous good work any decision about suitability is [client]&#8217;s responsibility and not mine.

I feel that to go to the trouble of hiring a photographer will be a waste of the courts time. It is not the issue at the heart of the case. As was discussed in the hearing it is simply about services rendered. [client] hired me to take some photographs. We agreed on a price and date and I did my job as outlined to me by [guy-B] of [client]. I provided the images in a matter of days and 2 months after being continually told I would be paid [client] suddenly found the images were not to the brief. I should have made this clear in the hearing and I apologise for not doing so.

Sincerely yours,
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AOP says:

Rejection

A representative of the client on the shoot, normally the Art Director, accepts or rejects the photography on behalf of the company. If they are present throughout, they will have seen the set, given and taken advice on the presentation of the subject matter and lighting, and been shown Polariods indicating how the final shot will look. Contacts/film will have been looked at, discussed and the final images chosen. Acceptance by this representative is taken that the shoot has produced the agreed images and the photographer has kept their side of the bargain and completed their side of the contract. If no representative is present, then it is generally taken that the photographer's judgment is final.

Rejection after the shoot

If no representative of the client was present, and a portfolio of the photographer's work was seen before the comission, then rejection of the work after the shoot, on aesthetic grounds, is not acceptable. It could be presumed that no direction from, or on behalf of the client gives the photographer the final say, and that the expertise of the photographer is sufficient.

If the client's representative attended the shoot and accepted the photography on the day then, rejection after the shoot on asthetic grounds is equally unacceptable. The photographer should be paid in full and should not be expected to subsidise any expenses of the shoot. Should a re-shoot be negotiated, new fees and expenses should also be negotiated.

Rejection of work on technical grounds

Work may be rejected for the following technical reasons
i) Unacceptable quality of the transparency of print, e.g. inappropriate or old film used.
ii) Technical failure by the photographer or any service for which it was agreed they were responsible
iii) The photographer has not produced the details or effects as specified in the brief

The photographer should be given the opportunity to re-shoot at their own expense. If a re-shoot is not offered or accepted, no fee is payable and any expenses paid in advance should be refunded.

Any rejection of work should be made within a maximum of 10 days from the date of the film/contacts are delivered to the client.
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Sounds good to me other than the grammatical error in:

some two months after [client] had been accepted my work.
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Ditch the 'been'

P.S. I have no legal background at all - am just saying it reads well to me.
 
Cool thanks. This *NEEDS* to work. Its all there. I should have said, but this letter has to get this quality issue removed.
 
Its unfortunate "peanuts" no longer has an input on this thread because he did have some legal background.
I am of the opinion that his advice was concise, sensible, and logical.
 
Thats been done and dusted. Try to stay on topic please :) I don't want this thread turning sour when I most need it.
 
petemc said:
Thats been done and dusted. Try to stay on topic please :) I don't want this thread turning sour when I most need it.
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I can't imagine it going sour as a result of my post, were all there for you Pete, lots of support:).
 
Its because it doesn't need to be brought up and then others may comment on it. Its done. Lets leave it there.
 
Ok. interesting email came in.

I would assume from your prompt departure from the court room on Thursday 22nd November that you are not keen to enter into mediation. We were hoping that this would not be the case as we have been more than willing to offer you a fair and just some for the work carried out on a number of occasions. As you have refused this route we have had little option than to take advice from our legal representatives at Brabners regarding the case, as well as further*dialogue with a number of photographers unknown to us prior to contact. Acting on this advice*we are now more than happy to move forward and will be furnishing you with a list of photographers

I feel aggrieved that the situation has come this far. However you choose to feel about it, this is not a common situation for us. We work exceedingly hard at [Client] to produce work that impresses our clients and that is where we derive our satisfaction from. When the time came to use your images, it became clear that they were not of a suitable standard to reflect Liverpool's first official 5 star accommodation providers and this was highlighted by the clients unhappiness. The dramatic wide angle shots that you spoke of are not there and this sentiment is echoed by the photographers we have liaised with.
*
At the time we offered what we felt was a fair and just settlement for work undertaken. As you have taken to refuse that hands down and cited a clause that we had no prior knowledge of ([AnotherClient] is not [Client]), nor signed to agree, then we have been left no choice in our minds but to pursue this in light of the damage caused both to client relationship and for the cost of reshooting. We cannot be responsible for a supplier not choosing to protect themselves with signed T's & C's, especially when such contentious clauses as no.9 exist. To receive your terms attached to an invoice (not the first invoice invoice I might add), is ludicrous and answers its own argument.
*
To summarise, though not happily, we will continue with the chosen route as is your wont.
*
Finally, it would be appreciated if you could remove from your website, before close of business*Thursday 29th November, the listing of [Client] as your client for photography. Given the current situation that is an untruth.
*
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Really tempted to try and settle tbh. Its a bit beyond me all this and I'm feeling it a lot. If I could take £250 right now, I'd be quite tempted to do so. I know I *should* fight but you know, its just tricky. Oh and my swift departure was because I didn't know what to do next so I left.
 
I think the best think to do is to go with your gut feeling to be honest...u'v fought it a lot, its not like u'v just given in with no arguing and if u feel that its getting possibly out of hand or into a possible situation that ur not comfortable with then you should consider settling? completely up to u tho obviously
 
TBH that sounds like a load of crap that they've sent.
They know it's going ahead with court, so why are they telling you this?

I'll summarise the email.

"Fine, it's going to court. We're going to court. You want to go to court, so we're going to court. Fine. So there. Humph".
 
As long as you got SOMETHING for your work - the £250 or similar, as thats only fair
 
petemc said:
Ok. interesting email came in.



Really tempted to try and settle tbh. Its a bit beyond me all this and I'm feeling it a lot. If I could take £250 right now, I'd be quite tempted to do so. I know I *should* fight but you know, its just tricky. Oh and my swift departure was because I didn't know what to do next so I left.
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thats the problem with things, sometimes they don;t go the way you want, and when you force someones hand you may not like the outcome.

You have two choices now, fight as intended (or I assume that was your intentention when you took them to court) or try and seek a settelement. Either way you are the only one who knows whats best for you.

People on here can and will advise you to the best of their ability, but you need to decide what you want or rather what you don't want. i.e. its coming up to christmas do you want this dragging on?
 
"Finally, it would be appreciated if you could remove from your website, before close of business*Thursday 29th November, the listing of [Client] as your client for photography. Given the current situation that is an untruth."

The first thing I would do is email them back stateing that until this matter is resolved to your satisfaction and all money owed to you is payed in full it will remain on your website because until they have forfilled their contract with you they are still your client!!
 
rwotton said:
thats the problem with things, sometimes they don;t go the way you want, and when you force someones hand you may not like the outcome.

You have two choices now, fight as intended (or I assume that was your intentention when you took them to court) or try and seek a settelement. Either way you are the only one who knows whats best for you.

People on here can and will advise you to the best of their ability, but you need to decide what you want or rather what you don't want. i.e. its coming up to christmas do you want this dragging on?
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Its going right through Xmas into new year. :( Gotta get the photographer sorted by Dec 5th. Then a letter from him by Jan 7th. £250 right now would allow me to visit a friend and get photos. I'd take that now over missing out on Xmas.
 
We were on the point of taking someone to court very recently. We've settled with a hit of about 40% on our fee, simply because it's easier.
 
I'm just wondering how much I'd get if we tried to settle. Would I get that 50% given that they are counter claiming against me?
 
petemc said:
I'm just wondering how much I'd get if we tried to settle. Would I get that 50% given that they are counter claiming against me?
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There is no guarantee, what I was trying to hint at in my earlier post was that they may of got good legal advice and been told they ahve a good case. In which case they may be prepared to drag it through the courts, you ahve shown them what you can do, how you react to pressure etc and they may feel they can win and therefore will tell you to whistle.

how would you even ask for an out of court settlement? if someone had taken me to court and then later said "I tell you what, lets settle out of court" I would laugh cause obviously they ahve no confidence in what their doing.
 
Only you can make the choice to carry on with the case Pete, but I wouldn't take any notice of an email like this. You were supposed to hang around in the court just on the off chance they wanted to talk? B*ll*cks. And talk about what, unless it was paying what they owed, then there was nothing to hear. :shrug:

If they were serious, and in a powerful position, it would be an official letter from their legal representatives, not a letter like this, imho.

It is far easier to give in to any compromise, that is what they are hoping for.

And about removing work you have done for them, if they have paid you for work in the past, then you can display that work, unless it is the disputed work of course. ;)
 
petemc said:
I'm just wondering how much I'd get if we tried to settle. Would I get that 50% given that they are counter claiming against me?
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No real advice to offer Pete, just support. (y) you've come a long way so far so, try not to let the b'stards get to you.
I had a claim years ago, ( something totally unrelated BTW) I was pee'd about messed about and generally f'ked with. Then I was offered meagre amounts with a short dead line of "acceptance". I thankfully stuck with it
( dispite the advice of my 1st solictor, total pratt as it turned out but thats another story)
and I finally got a "reasonable settlement" of twice the amount that was their "absolute final offer". So I know some of what you are going through..... and the tactics they use to wear you down...keep your chin up Pete and good luck
 
If it were your client, as soon as you offered to settle for 50% I'd push it as an admission of guilt and take you to the cleaners.

Best advice is to stop taking advice from a forum and find a "good" solicitor and let him fight it.
 
If they get a good solicitor on you as a counter, you'll afford even less for a long time !!!
 
Pete, I have been reading this thread from when it started, I haven't had any input to give (as I dont know about all the legal issues), but if they are counter claiming I would suggest you contact a solicitor asap, What you spend on a solicitor now may save you lots later in this case.

I hope you get the outcome you want and deserve.

Mark
 
digitalfailure said:
If they get a good solicitor on you as a counter, you'll afford even less for a long time !!!
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FS :( This has all got way out of control. I'll sleep on it, but my thoughts right now are legal costs, worry over christmas and more pressure. For £250... Well, £150 after legal costs.
 
Pete

I've had a similar problem myself. Luckily, the client backed down in the end before it got to the stage you're at.

Sadly, people today think they can treat others like this - and when in any sort of corner they will do anything to get out of it.

I hope you well in your case.

Lee
 
You might not like me saying this but personally I would not have discussed it so publicly as you have done, especially when it has got this far and went to court.
Have you considered that they may have been reading every word you have written in this thread by having been tipped off in some way, it wouldn't take the sharpest tool in the box to make a connection.
 
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