COVID vaccine announced

Same old arguement re the NHS etc, you just cannot base who can access it based on anything other than if you are entitled to do so or not.
The argument about not allowing antivaxxers for example to access services is simply a distraction from the fact that there's not enough done to promote health and educate the populace in a meaningful way.
 

He's hardly likely to come out and trash it is he. The bit that sticks out for me and has bothered me from when this was announced to great fanfare is this " however, the lack of full data sets from the ongoing trials has left unanswered the question of whether the vaccine is also effective for those with asymptomatic infections." if they have so much confidence in their vaccine why not release the data and let government medical and scientific experts assess it before they spend millions if not billions purchasing this vaccine.
 
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He's hardly likely to come out and trash it is he. The bit that sticks out for me and has bothered me from when this was announced to great fanfare is this " however, the lack of full data sets from the ongoing trials has left unanswered the question of whether the vaccine is also effective for those with asymptomatic infections." if they have so much confidence in their vaccine why not release the data and let government medical and scientific experts asses it before they spend millions if not billions purchasing this vaccine.
The purpose of the trial is to find if the vaccine stops disease rather than infection. Full 'sterilising immunity' would be a (very significant) bonus, but not all vaccines do this and we'd still buy this one if it didn't. The Pfizer scientists themselves don't know the full story yet.
The results have not been peer-reviewed by outside scientists or published in a medical journal, and even Pfizer and BioNTech have been given no other details about how the vaccine performed by the independent monitors overseeing the study. ... The story of how the data have been analyzed seems to include no small amount of drama. Pfizer, seeing an opportunity to both help battle a pandemic and demonstrate its research prowess, made decisions that were always likely to make its study the first of a Covid-19 vaccine to produce data — including its decision to have an independent group of researchers, known as a data safety and monitoring board, take an early look at the data in the 44,000-volunteer study before its completion.
 
lol I know you are kidding but many laws have been passed to protect the population from it’s stupidly, like seat belt, or drink driving or building regulations etc

if they decide to pass a law on masks, it won’t be the first time doing it to protect the people. People are stupid, sometimes it’s necessary to pass laws so the population must follow in order to make up the difference in IQ points, before they harm themselves or other people.
Personally I think we should keep the vaccine voluntary but make 5G compulsory, just to wind them up.
 
That would be quite a dangerous scenario though?

Do the people who smoke, are obese, alcoholic, have religous beliefs, self harm due to mental health issues etc also have to sign the waiver that they are not entitled to NHS help when they become ill with something?
What have they got to do with the COVID vaccine? That’s what this threads about, but if you want me to go off piste
I would certainly make the first three pay, those are all choices they made to ruin their health. its about time they start taking responsibility for their actions. Religion Absobloodylutely!
Mental health is another issue and I don’t have any answers for that.
 
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What have they got to do with the COVID vaccine? That’s what this threads about, but if you want me to go off piste
I would certainly make the first three pay, those are all choices they made to ruin their health. its about time they start taking responsibility for their actions. Religion Absobloodylutely!
Mental health is another issue and I don’t have any answers for that.

While we are at it we could refuse to treat running injuries as self inflicted, same for people who fall off bikes, not to mention make those suffering sports injuries pay their own way. Attempted suicide too, make em pay for stomach pumps and the like... after all, self inflicted!!! Great, I can see the NHS needing half its funding!
 
While we are at it we could refuse to treat running injuries as self inflicted, same for people who fall off bikes, not to mention make those suffering sports injuries pay their own way. Attempted suicide too, make em pay for stomach pumps and the like... after all, self inflicted!!! Great, I can see the NHS needing half its funding!
Again whats that got to do with the vaccine?
And again if you want me go of piste, If you can’t tell the difference between someone playing sport and someone stuffing food or booze down their throat then maybe this thread isn’t for you.
Try staying on topic instead of trying to stoke conflict.
 
Again whats that got to do with the vaccine?
And again if you want me go of piste, If you can’t tell the difference between someone playing sport and someone stuffing food or booze down their throat then maybe this thread isn’t for you.
Try staying on topic instead of trying to stoke conflict.

You are the one thinking certain people should not have free access to NHS but once you do it for one reason you will end up with it being for more and more - ok, so an obese person has a heart attack, or to keep this on topic, I have not been vaccinated and I get covid, would you seriously suggest that the person is left to die if they cant pay for treatment?
 
My wife is a biologist/biotechnologist with a masters degree which focussed on RNA/DNA, so she does have experience relevant to this virus. She is an expert in T-cell receptors and the part they play in the immune system.
Covid-19 is nothing like a cold or even seasonal flu, it is far more dangerous.
But really, One doesnt have to qualify in any area to figure that out. basic understanding of math and statistics will suffice
 
What have they got to do with the COVID vaccine? That’s what this threads about, but if you want me to go off piste
I would certainly make the first three pay, those are all choices they made to ruin their health. its about time they start taking responsibility for their actions. Religion Absobloodylutely!
Mental health is another issue and I don’t have any answers for that.
Alcoholism is not and obesity is not necessarily a choice.
 
But really, One doesnt have to qualify in any area to figure that out. basic understanding of math and statistics will suffice


Exactly, but some people wish to ignore the obvious and fight against logic with pseudo science and gobbledigook.
If we look at the stats for deaths and cases of Covid-19 in the UK and then compare us with other countries, we are in dire straights.
We are currently experiencing around 560 deaths a day, whereas the US is around the 1000 mark. The problem is that the US has a population around 5 times that of the UK.
At the beginning of the week, the BBC reported that we had seen over 1000 deaths in a week for the first time since May.
That in fact was incorrect, the figure was 2575 and the "over 1000" deaths figure started 3 weeks ago.
 
Exactly, but some people wish to ignore the obvious and fight against logic with pseudo science and gobbledigook.
If we look at the stats for deaths and cases of Covid-19 in the UK and then compare us with other countries, we are in dire straights.
We are currently experiencing around 560 deaths a day, whereas the US is around the 1000 mark. The problem is that the US has a population around 5 times that of the UK.
At the beginning of the week, the BBC reported that we had seen over 1000 deaths in a week for the first time since May.
That in fact was incorrect, the figure was 2575 and the "over 1000" deaths figure started 3 weeks ago.


If I compare some apples & oranges my psuedo science tells me that they are not the same.

".......but some people wish to ignore the obvious and fight against logic?"
 
Even using the 51k running total that doesn't factor in lack of testing during the first wave (the true figure is likely >65k by now) we have more deaths than any other European country, and more per capita deaths than any except Belgium and Spain. We have 5x more per capita deaths than Germany and 8x more than Greece. Looking further afield at countries with radically different approaches to test, trace & isolate and border quarantines, we have about 20x more per capita deaths than Australia, 50x more than Japan, 75x more than South Korea, 150x more than New Zealand, 1900x more than Vietnam, and 2500x more than Taiwan. All these countries learnt about the new coronavirus at the same time, but made different choices about how to deal with it.
 
I can see employers doing that in some circumstances.
I reckon mine would, we already have to declare (everyday) that we haven't been in contact with anyone with the virus or having to quarantine within so many days, before we go to work, we then have our temperatures scanned on entering the building and have to wear our masks at all times apart from when eating and drinking. This seems a natural next step.
 
One of the thing you learn when you go to University is the skill of separating facts from fiction, or at least, state your source, and more importantly, state a legit source.

It is the cornerstone to Essay writing. Everyone can have an opinion, that is perfectly fine but you can't just state something without backing up your claim, even if you think it's obvious. Say in the essay you say "The Sky is Blue". You better have an * and link to a footnote and explain that the sky is blue due to the particles as light travels through the atmosphere and explained by X Paper, in Y Date by Z Author. Or if you put that "stealing is illegal", you need to state the chapter and verse on which legislation it comes out of, and the case law gives the definition on what constitute as stealing. What you don't do is link to obscure sources, you learn to filter out and realise what is bad sources and what is legit. Even Wikipedia is not a good source, because it is user editable meaning it is prone to errors.

You can see someone without this skill coming a mile off, it is more than likely they never had a university education, it doesn't really matter what degree they took, it doesn't need to be science, because the standard of referencing is pretty much the same across the board. When someone never gone through that, they never learn to have that filter in their head. They think questioning everything is the way to go. They think questioning legit sources is even better idea. There is an distinct lack of separation on what is legit or not. Their questioning isn't the problem, their lack of skill on filtering is.

Can you imagine, like @andya700 's wife, spent years in school, worked hard, good grades, get into university, got a job, doing research, basically what she is good at (Excellent at, 100% guarantee better than all of us at it), and then someone somewhere online who has never picked up a book on the subject goes on Twitter, Facebook and forums disputing all of their lifetime of work base on something they read from another Twitter feed. No reasonable man would ever do the latter.

One extreme example was when Clinton was running for the 2016 Election and there was this Pizzagate, it was claimed by some CT nut that she ran an underground paedephile ring out of the basement of a pizza parlour in Washington DC. It went around the Far Right channels like wild fire. Now a normal reasonable person would look at that and think it's absurd. (I bet some of you think it is possible, even 1%).

Well, someone believed it enough to pick up an assault rifle and went and "attack" the Pizza Parlour, shot at the premises, it turns out, obviously, there was no children locked up in the basement, in fact the building doesn't even have a basement.

 
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Even using the 51k running total that doesn't factor in lack of testing during the first wave (the true figure is likely >65k by now) we have more deaths than any other European country, and more per capita deaths than any except Belgium and Spain. We have 5x more per capita deaths than Germany and 8x more than Greece. Looking further afield at countries with radically different approaches to test, trace & isolate and border quarantines, we have about 20x more per capita deaths than Australia, 50x more than Japan, 75x more than South Korea, 150x more than New Zealand, 1900x more than Vietnam, and 2500x more than Taiwan. All these countries learnt about the new coronavirus at the same time, but made different choices about how to deal with it.

I am AMAZED how low the numbers are in Vietnam, not a country where you think hygiene is the best with their numerous street food stall, packed cities and close living quarters. I understand how Japan and Korea has low numbers (super clean, not a contact culture, they don't even shake hands), but Vietnam? I can only put it down to masks as the main difference, as that is something they have in common. (plus they all locked down their borders or implemented a STRICT 2 weeks quarantine)
 
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Even using the 51k running total that doesn't factor in lack of testing during the first wave (the true figure is likely >65k by now) we have more deaths than any other European country, and more per capita deaths than any except Belgium and Spain. We have 5x more per capita deaths than Germany and 8x more than Greece. Looking further afield at countries with radically different approaches to test, trace & isolate and border quarantines, we have about 20x more per capita deaths than Australia, 50x more than Japan, 75x more than South Korea, 150x more than New Zealand, 1900x more than Vietnam, and 2500x more than Taiwan. All these countries learnt about the new coronavirus at the same time, but made different choices about how to deal with it.

That may have something to do with the people of those countries having more self-discipline than we do in so far as to how they respond better to abiding by what they are told they can and cannot do.
 
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I am AMAZED how low the numbers are in Vietnam, not a country where you think hygiene is the best with their numerous street food stall, packed cities and close living quarters. I understand how Japan and Korea has low numbers (super client, not a contact culture, they don't even shake hands), but Vietnam? I can only put it down to masks as the main difference, as that is something they have in common. (plus they all locked down their borders or implemented a STRICT 2 weeks quarantine)
When the first virus case was confirmed on 23 January - a man who had travelled from Wuhan to visit his son in Ho Chi Minh City - Vietnam's emergency plan was in action. "It very, very quickly acted in ways which seemed to be quite extreme at the time but were subsequently shown to be rather sensible," says Prof Guy Thwaites, director of Oxford University Clinical Research Unit (OUCRU) in Ho Chi Minh City, which works with the government on its infectious disease programmes. Vietnam enacted measures other countries would take months to move on, bringing in travel restrictions, closely monitoring and eventually closing the border with China and increasing health checks at borders and other vulnerable places. Schools were closed for the Lunar New Year holiday at the end of January and remained closed until mid-May. A vast and labour intensive contact tracing operation got under way.
 
Even using the 51k running total that doesn't factor in lack of testing during the first wave (the true figure is likely >65k by now) we have more deaths than any other European country, and more per capita deaths than any except Belgium and Spain. We have 5x more per capita deaths than Germany and 8x more than Greece. Looking further afield at countries with radically different approaches to test, trace & isolate and border quarantines, we have about 20x more per capita deaths than Australia, 50x more than Japan, 75x more than South Korea, 150x more than New Zealand, 1900x more than Vietnam, and 2500x more than Taiwan. All these countries learnt about the new coronavirus at the same time, but made different choices about how to deal with it.


Just to simplify it a little:

An Orange:
full


An Apple:
full


Completely pointless trying to compare them:

 
When the first virus case was confirmed on 23 January - a man who had travelled from Wuhan to visit his son in Ho Chi Minh City - Vietnam's emergency plan was in action. "It very, very quickly acted in ways which seemed to be quite extreme at the time but were subsequently shown to be rather sensible," says Prof Guy Thwaites, director of Oxford University Clinical Research Unit (OUCRU) in Ho Chi Minh City, which works with the government on its infectious disease programmes. Vietnam enacted measures other countries would take months to move on, bringing in travel restrictions, closely monitoring and eventually closing the border with China and increasing health checks at borders and other vulnerable places. Schools were closed for the Lunar New Year holiday at the end of January and remained closed until mid-May. A vast and labour intensive contact tracing operation got under way.

I remember they close the borders and do the 2 week quarantine too. Of the countries you mentioned, I have been to Korea, Japan and Taiwan so have had 1st hand experience of their culture but Vietnam is not a place i have visited besides travel shows.

I do remember in 2018 when I went to Taiwan they had thermal imaging cameras on border entry, they probably had that from SARS days. The scary thing is that I don't think we have put that in all our airports, even now. When I went to Korea in Feb, they put thermal cameras in all major buildings, shopping centres, museums etc.
 
That may have something to do with the people of those countries having more self-discipline than we do in so far as to how they respond better to abiding by what they are told they can and cannot do.

I think you have hit the nail on the head there, but I think we need to factor in, our politicians made wrong decisions, not enough of them and too late.
 
That may have something to do with the people of those countries having more self-discipline than we do in so far as to how they respond better to abiding by what they are told they can and cannot do.
Maybe so, but the East Asian countries that have done really well have other things in common. Aggressive use of test, trace and isolate (often including isolation facilities outside the household, or frequent checks that isolation is being complied with), border quarantines at a time when we were allowing people to travel relatively freely, early and universal mask use, and public health messages that tended to be simple, clear, and direct.
 
That may have something to do with the people of those countries having more self-discipline than we do in so far as to how they respond better to abiding by what they are told they can and cannot do.

Asian cultures typically has this ideology of listening to your elders, listening to people in higher up with more experience. Respect your elders is not something you say but a part of daily life (Especially in Korea*). So when the advice from health officials says "wear a mask". They don't go "We want our freedom!". They respect people like doctors who have been to school, have more knowledge, know what they are talking about and follow the advice.

* Although this can and have been a problem in the past when it came to aviation as if say the Captain is a making an obvious mistake and the 1st officer can't speak up because he does not have the seniority. https://www.cnbc.com/id/100869966

It's funny when you meet someone for the first time, they will ask your name and then your age. They need to know how old you are and then use the appropriate language in conversation in order to show respect (and expect the same in return if you are younger). Their whole etiquette from conversation to going out drinking has respect litter all over it. Like if you are older than the other person, they will pour your drinks and when they drink they will look away as it is impolite to drink while facing the elder. It's fascinating.
 
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For those keen on fruit metaphors, we are one of the bad apples, together with countries like Spain, Italy, Brazil and the US. Reporting differences may account for the relative ranking of the worst European countries (can we really be confident that Italy is doing slightly better than us?), but this can't really explain the substantially better performance of Germany or the enormously better performance of the East Asian and Pacific countries (where life is returning to normal and the economy is picking up).
 
For those keen on fruit metaphors, we are one of the bad apples, together with countries like Spain, Italy, Brazil and the US. Reporting differences may account for the relative ranking of the worst European countries (can we really be confident that Italy is doing slightly better than us?), but this can't really explain the substantially better performance of Germany or the enormously better performance of the East Asian and Pacific countries (where life is returning to normal and the economy is picking up).

In Japan, while the border is shut, the government has set up a fund to GIVE money away for local residents to travel within the country in order to stimulate the travel sector of the economy. They are actually encouraging people to travel more. The opposite of lockdown.
 
You are the one thinking certain people should not have free access to NHS
Yes people that refuse the vaccine if offered.

but once you do it for one reason you will end up with it being for more and more
Utter tosh if there was the merest sniff of that going on there would be anarchy especially from staff from the NHS and that’s from the horses mouth they also believe that vaccination should be compulsory this is from a paramedic and a senior nursing officer in my local hospital.


- ok, so an obese person has a heart attack, or to keep this on topic, I have not been vaccinated and I get covid, would you seriously suggest that the person is left to die if they cant pay for treatment?

You would be right at the back of the queue If you had the chance to vaccinated and refused.

Its opinions like this that are ruining our country. No responsibility for your actions, do what you like, eat what you like, smoke what you like.
Let the NHS pick up the bill, you’ve paid into it after all with all the tax you’ve paid on those burgers, cigarettes and pints.
 
Alcoholism is not and obesity is not necessarily a choice.
The first drink or the first burger or the first cigarette, there is always a choice.
Take it from someone who used to have a drinking and weight problem, there is ALWAYS a choice it’s up the you which choice you make.
 
I remember they close the borders and do the 2 week quarantine too. Of the countries you mentioned, I have been to Korea, Japan and Taiwan so have had 1st hand experience of their culture but Vietnam is not a place i have visited besides travel shows.

I do remember in 2018 when I went to Taiwan they had thermal imaging cameras on border entry, they probably had that from SARS days. The scary thing is that I don't think we have put that in all our airports, even now. When I went to Korea in Feb, they put thermal cameras in all major buildings, shopping centres, museums etc.


It is also very obvious that we have never had those measures in place and probably never will.
Interesting to look at population densities and total population of various countries. It isn't looki9ng good for the UK or France, Spain, Italy Belgium etc

UK - 67 million ----- 275 per sq/km --- C19 deaths per million - 749
England - 56 million ----- 432 per sq/km
South Korea - 52 million ------ 515 per sq/km --- C19 d/m - 10
Vietnam - 94 million ------ 308 per sq/km --- C19 d/m - 0.4
Japan - 126 million ------ 347 per sq/km --- C19 d/m - 15
 
Asian cultures typically has this ideology of listening to your elders, listening to people in higher up with more experience. Respect your elders is not something you say but a part of daily life (Especially in Korea*). So when the advice from health officials says "wear a mask". They don't go "We want our freedom!". They respect people like doctors who have been to school, have more knowledge, know what they are talking about and follow the advice.

* Although this can and have been a problem in the past when it came to aviation as if say the Captain is a making an obvious mistake and the 1st officer can't speak up because he does not have the seniority. https://www.cnbc.com/id/100869966

It's funny when you meet someone for the first time, they will ask your name and then your age. They need to know how old you are and then use the appropriate language in conversation in order to show respect (and expect the same in return if you are younger). Their whole etiquette from conversation to going out drinking has respect litter all over it. Like if you are older than the other person, they will pour your drinks and when they drink they will look away as it is impolite to drink while facing the elder. It's fascinating.
Now this is a good idea and we should adopt it here ... on TP I mean, no commenting on posts by people older than you, except maybe likes :).
 
Maybe so, but the East Asian countries that have done really well have other things in common. Aggressive use of test, trace and isolate (often including isolation facilities outside the household, or frequent checks that isolation is being complied with), border quarantines at a time when we were allowing people to travel relatively freely, early and universal mask use, and public health messages that tended to be simple, clear, and direct.

And i think if you take a broad look - the major euro countries have acted in much the same way, and have similar results with the exception of Germany.

It is dangerous to make simple comparisons, there will be many factors like the health of the population, age of people catching it etc... and all of these need to be properly assessed.
 
The first drink or the first burger or the first cigarette, there is always a choice.
Take it from someone who used to have a drinking and weight problem, there is ALWAYS a choice it’s up the you which choice you make.

Maybe not. I know of someone who potentially will struggle with addiction due to his mother being on drugs when he was in the womb. Nothing to do with his choice!
 
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