Freddie the seal mauled by a dog...

I must be honest: I distrust people who claim to love all animals. Some really don't taste that good... :naughty: :coat:
 
Bobsyeruncle said:
Nope, I don't love all animals and nature, just most.... :LOL:
Is that allowed? ;)
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I think that would be OK :).

It’s these sweeping generalisations that are a problem, we all do it and it’s mostly OK, like your “love nature” — we know what you mean. But then something happens and is reported in the press and it’s ’ all “professional” (ie big) cameras should be banned“ to stop terrorism or whatever :(. In this thread it’s ‘all dogs should be on short leads’. Nobody stops to think about the implications of policing these ‘bans’ they want — if police are checking up on, say, photographers they are not doing something else :(.
 
Bobsyeruncle said:
Nope, I don't love all animals and nature, just most.... :LOL:
Is that allowed? ;)
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I think it very possible to love the natural world, without loving every part. But, I think it important to realise it is a whole, less appealing bits and all.

I think many people have gone to far and anthropomorphised many of the charismatic species now, which is very sad.
 
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boyfalldown said:
I think it very possible to love the natural world, without loving every part. But, I think it important to realise it is a whole, less appealing bits and all.

I think many people have gone to far and anthropomorphised many of the charismatic species now, which is very sad.
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Curious as it may seem, we agree on something. ;)
 
sphexx said:
It seems to me this thread isn’t really ‘Talk Nature’ :(.
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But its nature at work
You could argue that if the dog was on a lead, it wouldn't have happened.
Or if the seal was elsewhere it wouldn't have happened.
Natural selection can be cruel at times.
 
Cobra said:
You could argue that if the dog was on a lead, it wouldn't have happened.
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Being on a lead would have made less likely but far from impossible if they came upon the seal unexpectedly — and who expects to see a seal on the Thames.

I’ve probably told this before but I had a terrier puppy in the Foot & Mouth outbreak so he never saw any sheep, cattle, horses etc (except my poultry) and the first time he saw a horse he threw himself at it‘s throat (it was in a stable looking over the door), luckily he was on the lead so I yanked him back, but a bigger dog would have got there :(. I think it was partly the ’unexpectedness’ from his point of view.
 
Shows what a caring society we live in, 80yo living on her own and none of the neighbours seem to
know anything about her or if in fact who lived there, but all want to speak to the press !!!
 
Gremlin said:
Shows what a caring society we live in, 80yo living on her own and none of the neighbours seem to
know anything about her or if in fact who lived there, but all want to speak to the press !!!
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There's that element of it but also the fact the owner didn't forsee the danger his pets kept and could have done more to keep them confined to his property boundaries.
 
gramps said:
In other words, an irresponsible dog owner.
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Yes- but also a nasty aggressive pair dogs - I've had next doors dog come through and not ended up mauled to death because of it. At least the dogs will be put down. That's something at least.

It's not always solely attributable to the owner - dogs are capable of independent thought and action so it's a case of nature and nurture. In this case keeping the dogs in would have helped, but probably off the leads these mutts would attack anything and everything. Not all dogs would.
 
SFTPhotography said:
Yes- but also a nasty aggressive pair dogs - I've had next doors dog come through and not ended up mauled to death because of it. At least the dogs will be put down. That's something at least.

It's not always solely attributable to the owner - dogs are capable of independent thought and action so it's a case of nature and nurture. In this case keeping the dogs in would have helped, but probably off the leads these mutts would attack anything and everything. Not all dogs would.
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There is always the potential of danger from 'multiple' dogs and certain breeds are more prone to aggression but overwhelmingly it is a lack of training and care on behalf of the owner that is at the core of the problem. A while back I was walking through a local cemetary doing some photography when I was confronted by a growling dog that appeared to be an American Pit Bull and I immediately mentally prepared myself for defence, the owner appeared and said, "Just stand still and he won't hurt you" ... if the owner needed to say that he knew the potential of the dog and should not have had it off the lead!
 
Police spokesman just said that the dogs responsible for killing the elderly women are 'being examined to establish breed', so can make our own guesses there.
 
gramps said:
There is always the potential of danger from 'multiple' dogs and certain breeds are more prone to aggression but overwhelmingly it is a lack of training and care on behalf of the owner that is at the core of the problem. A while back I was walking through a local cemetary doing some photography when I was confronted by a growling dog that appeared to be an American Pit Bull and I immediately mentally prepared myself for defence, the owner appeared and said, "Just stand still and he won't hurt you" ... if the owner needed to say that he knew the potential of the dog and should not have had it off the lead!
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It's also the potential for damage should a dog attack - a larger, more powerful dog, can inflict more damage on a person than a smaller weaker dog. If a Rottweiler attacks someone it's probably going to be fatal - if a west highland terrier goes for the ankles it's a penalty kick for the world cup away into the air and a quick anti rabbies jab.

Tales like this are sadly all too common. Bad owners will get lucky with a good dog, bad owners with a bad dog it ends badly, good owners with a good dog great, good owners with a bad dog - well they might get unlucky if the dog gets out, pulls itself off the lead etc.
 
SFTPhotography said:
Yes- but also a nasty aggressive pair dogs - I've had next doors dog come through and not ended up mauled to death because of it. At least the dogs will be put down. That's something at least.

It's not always solely attributable to the owner - dogs are capable of independent thought and action so it's a case of nature and nurture. In this case keeping the dogs in would have helped, but probably off the leads these mutts would attack anything and everything. Not all dogs would.
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Everybody seems to think they know the whole story which likely they don’t and never will. The dogs may have broken through the fence themselves, the lady may have been responsible for the fence, she may attempted to return the dogs rather than retreat or stay indoors and so on. And I’m not saying it was all her fault.we don’t even know what sort of dogs they are — there was a woman killed by her own toy breed dogs in California a few years back, I think there were about 5 of them and not aggressive and it’s not known what caused it but I seem to remember it was thought she fell down and the dogs became excited for some reason.
 
sphexx said:
Everybody seems to think they know the whole story which likely they don’t and never will. The dogs may have broken through the fence themselves, the lady may have been responsible for the fence, she may attempted to return the dogs rather than retreat or stay indoors and so on. And I’m not saying it was all her fault.we don’t even know what sort of dogs they are — there was a woman killed by her own toy breed dogs in California a few years back, I think there were about 5 of them and not aggressive and it’s not known what caused it but I seem to remember it was thought she fell down and the dogs became excited for some reason.
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I think the fence will probably have been in a state of minor disrepair....good point as to who is actually responsible for that.

Ultimately a stray dog or two in a garden shouldn't end like in this way - it happens to me occasionally - usually a bang on the window is enough to see the dog scarper. I'd wager the she's been outside in the good weather, they've come through and just gone for her. Probably as she knows the neighbours she probably thought the dogs would be ok - familiarity being the cause of complacency. But with dogs - complacency is never an option - they won't always do what you hope they will.

Wonky fence or not - the fault entirely is of the dog. Short of her baiting them into her garden, kicking at them then them lashing out I doubt the fault really lies with her.

There is the argument the owner should have left the dog inside - or supervised them better - all them valid but ultimately this is why I am against dogs - they're instinctively hunters and have the power to kill - a momentary lapse of supervision or control and an innocent gets a pretty nasty death.

Looking by the size of the dog in the article being pulled out the house - it ain't a small 'un and again that attests to how this played out.
 
gramps said:
True but if the are 'being tested for breed', what sort do you think they are?
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Sorry but that’s just the standard police statement. And there aren’t any real tests for breed in most cases as they are of unknown ancestry almost by definition. What they mean is they are going to give them certain ‘behavioural’ tests which probably most dogs (and humans :() would fail in police custody :(.

Not quite the same thing but see how President Biden’s dogs are having difficulty adjusting to ‘strange’ bodyguards round POTUS :(.
 
SFTPhotography said:
Well....I doubt it's a pair of cocker spaniels, poodles, or golden retrievers but you never know...
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When the police were originally testing dogs to settle on a breed to use it was a toss-up between Labradors & ‘Alsatians’ (as they then were) for the necessary aggressive qualities. They rejected the Labs because people were less fearful of them :).
 
sphexx said:
Sorry but that’s just the standard police statement. And there aren’t any real tests for breed in most cases as they are of unknown ancestry almost by definition. What they mean is they are going to give them certain ‘behavioural’ tests which probably most dogs (and humans :() would fail in police custody :(.

Not quite the same thing but see how President Biden’s dogs are having difficulty adjusting to ‘strange’ bodyguards round POTUS :(.
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Appearance and jaw structure...I imagine it'll be determined either a pitt pull type dog, or staffie...

As for Biden...I preferred Trumps dog free whitehouse, actually I just preferred Trump end of :D
sphexx said:
When the police were originally testing dogs to settle on a breed to use it was a toss-up between Labradors & ‘Alsatians’ (as they then were) for the necessary aggressive qualities. They rejected the Labs because people were less fearful of them :).
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Ironically both big dogs but neither breed seem to be particularly prevalent in human fatalities. An Alsatian is a more formidable dog, certainly more wolf life in appearance but not one the one most who are apprehensive about dogs fear. Anything big is to be wary of...but it's the big headed pitbull powerful dog that is the real worry due to its strength, aggression and jaw structure.
 
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sphexx said:
When the police were originally testing dogs to settle on a breed to use it was a toss-up between Labradors & ‘Alsatians’ (as they then were) for the necessary aggressive qualities. They rejected the Labs because people were less fearful of them :).
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I'm pretty sure it was to determine if it they were Pit bulls or Part pit bull after all the attacks a few years back.
Pit Bull ownership is banned in the UK.

In 1991, the UK government decided to ban pit bulls in response to a slew of incidents involving vicious, often unprovoked attacks, by this particular breed of dog, on humans. ... Three other dog breeds that were outlawed in this Act: the Japanese Tosa, Dogo Argentino, and Fila Brasileiro



The breeds of dog currently illegal in the UK are the Pit Bull Terrier, Japanese Tosa, Dogo Argentino and the Fila Brasileiro. But crossbreeds including any of those types of dog may also be subject to the law, depending on their size and characteristics.
 
Cobra said:
I'm pretty sure it was to determine if it they were Pit bulls or Part pit bull after all the attacks a few years back.
Pit Bull ownership is banned in the UK.

In 1991, the UK government decided to ban pit bulls in response to a slew of incidents involving vicious, often unprovoked attacks, by this particular breed of dog, on humans. ... Three other dog breeds that were outlawed in this Act: the Japanese Tosa, Dogo Argentino, and Fila Brasileiro



The breeds of dog currently illegal in the UK are the Pit Bull Terrier, Japanese Tosa, Dogo Argentino and the Fila Brasileiro. But crossbreeds including any of those types of dog may also be subject to the law, depending on their size and characteristics.
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Yes, I know, but my ‘quarrel’ is with the term ‘breed’. If these various breeds have registered pedigrees in their home countries (which is doubtful in most cases and there are multiple registries in some countries) then it could be possible to determine if these dogs were related to those. Most of these so-called pit-bulls are Staffie based cross breeds of indeterminate breeding and probably mostly unsocialised and untrained except either accidentally or deliberately trained to be aggressive :(.

Determining what a dog is like and can do just by looking at its body shape is a common theme among Kennel Club show people and is mostly rubbish as a lot of what a dog can do is inside it’s head :(.

I don’t know if you’ve read up on pit bulls in USA?
 
[QUOTE="sphexx, post: 8924105, member: 53481"

Determining what a dog is like and can do just by looking at its body shape is a common theme among Kennel Club show people and is mostly rubbish as a lot of what a dog can do is inside it’s head :(.

[/QUOTE]

Indeed, even the RSPCA doesn’t like Breed Specific Legislation (for good reason)
 
SFTPhotography said:
Appearance and jaw structure...I imagine it'll be determined either a pitt pull type dog, or staffie...
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Have met dogs of both breeds I have to say that although not my choice to own both have been friendly,
as they say blame the deed not the breed and in most cases blame the owner
I used to live next door to the most obnoxious family who's kid used to tease the dogs though a 8ft hedged fence
poking them with long sticks etc. one of my dogs hated them and I have no doubt that if that kid had succeeded in getting the garden it would have ended badly, gate was kept locked at all times, yet other children came in to paly with no problems
As has been said, we don't the full story and probably never will, yes the dogs will lose their lives but it may not be their fault
 
Gremlin said:
Have met dogs of both breeds I have to say that although not my choice to own both have been friendly,
as they say blame the deed not the breed and in most cases blame the owner
I used to live next door to the most obnoxious family who's kid used to tease the dogs though a 8ft hedged fence
poking them with long sticks etc. one of my dogs hated them and I have no doubt that if that kid had succeeded in getting the garden it would have ended badly, gate was kept locked at all times, yet other children came in to paly with no problems
As has been said, we don't the full story and probably never will, yes the dogs will lose their lives but it may not be their fault
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Indeed but I doubt an old biddy has being poking them through the fence with sticks...

A bit like the seal incident this is a case of dogs doing what they will instinctively do...
 
In 1991, the UK government decided to ban pit bulls in response to a slew of incidents involving vicious, often unprovoked attacks, by this particular breed of dog, on humans.

I wonder if Pit Bulls in this country are different from Pit Bulls in America.
The American ones you see on TV and social media are placid, family pets.
I understand not all of them will be placid, family pets.
Or, is it down to the half-wits that own them illegally and train them to do unimaginable things in this country :thinking:
 
SFTPhotography said:
Indeed but I doubt an old biddy has being poking them through the fence with sticks...
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Funny that my what do yousuppose happens to, for instance, nasty badly behaved people when they get old? In my experience some of them remain nasty, just older :(.
 
SFTPhotography said:
Well....I doubt it's a pair of cocker spaniels, poodles, or golden retrievers but you never know...
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I've had Spaniels all of my dog owning days.
Golden Cockers have Rage Syndrome and I always advise potential owners to steer clear of them but nobody believes me - until its too late.
My Dad and Grandad bred Alsatians for show and agility/obedience.
I'd rather trust them than a Golden Cocker.
These days the Rage Syndrome still exists but responsible breeders have went to great lengths to erradicate the fault.

I once read an American book on dog breeds and Golden Retrievers faired worse than Rottweilers!!

I've only been bitten once and that was by a Poodle
 
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mstphoto said:
In 1991, the UK government decided to ban pit bulls in response to a slew of incidents involving vicious, often unprovoked attacks, by this particular breed of dog, on humans.

I wonder if Pit Bulls in this country are different from Pit Bulls in America.
The American ones you see on TV and social media are placid, family pets.
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They’ve been ‘trained’ etc. But really you can’t generalise about even pit bulls in the US because it’s a vast country and there will be all sorts of dogs. I would be willing to bet there’s probably a lot more illegal dog fighting in the US than here. I think it was only banned nationwide in 2007.
 
mstphoto said:
I've had Spaniels all of my dog owning days.
Golden Cockers have Rage Syndrome and I always advise potential owners to steer clear of them but nobody believes me - until its too late.
My Dad and Grandad bred Alsatians for show and agility/obedience.
I'd rather trust them than a Golden Cocker.
These days the Rage Syndrome still exists but responsible breeders have went to great lengths to erradicate the fault.

I once read an American book on dog breeds and Golden Retrievers faired worse than Rottweilers!!

I've only been bitten once and that was by a Poodle
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We had a Golden Cocker post WW2 and she was OK, but there were a lot of problems with them partly due (from memory) that they won Crufts twice prior to the war and possibly for that reason were over popular and over bred post war:(.
 
mstphoto said:
I've had Spaniels all of my dog owning days.
Golden Cockers have Rage Syndrome and I always advise potential owners to steer clear of them but nobody believes me - until its too late.
My Dad and Grandad bred Alsatians for show and agility/obedience.
I'd rather trust them than a Golden Cocker.
These days the Rage Syndrome still exists but responsible breeders have went to great lengths to erradicate the fault.

I once read an American book on dog breeds and Golden Retrievers faired worse than Rottweilers!!

I've only been bitten once and that was by a Poodle
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Here's the thing, a poodle, or cocker is a small sized dog. It doesn't have the strength to take someone to the ground. If one bites you, you'll have the ability still to kick it so hard that it'll need more medical attention than you. Or better still get the boot in before it gets its teeth in.

If a Rottweiler bites you, if you're lucky enough to get a kick in it's just coming back for more.

Never heard of issues or real dangers with golden retrievers - which is why a lot own them as pets. Cockers, Retrievers etc are gun dogs-theyre bred to fetch not to guard or kill. That's not to say the primal canine instinct isn't there- but they don't have the same behaviors, or physical strength as Rottweilers.

I doubt this is a pack of spaniels that have done this...
 
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sphexx said:
Funny that my what do yousuppose happens to, for instance, nasty badly behaved people when they get old? In my experience some of them remain nasty, just older :(.
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They mellow and grow up...mostly.

I find the hypothesis that the woman goaded abd tormented the dogs quite improbable.

I know you like dog's and want to rationalise this...but I think this is down to poor ownership and control and primal canine behavior
 
SFTPhotography said:
Here's the thing, a poodle, or cocker is a small sized dog. It doesn't have the strength to take someone to the ground. If one bites you, you'll have the ability still to kick it so hard that it'll need more medical attention than you.

Doesn't go that way with a Rottie...
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It depends. I cited that case earlier where an elderly woman was killed by her own toy breed dogs :(.

Possibly another example. My previous small fell terrier when he was young used ’run up’ my brother’s body and perch on his shoulder, more or less without warning. It would obviously have been feasible for him to get to someone’s throat if he was so inclined -- he wasn’t.
 
SFTPhotography said:
I know you like dog's and want to rationalise this...
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No I don’t. I’m just saying we don’t know the facts and probably never will.

I would also say you would like a law that says all dogs should be on the lead at all times but while that woukd adversely affect most dogs and owners it wouldn’t affect the very problem dogs and owners that need to be controlled.
 
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