Just had Professional Photographs Taken, ADVICE DESPERATELY NEEDED!!

[neil_g]

You can nit pick my replies as much as you like but what do we have here: pros arguing that consumers are paying for their costs hence the pricing. Does the consider care about the costs they are paying for? No.

In their mind: Can they get the same quality from an.....amateur? Yes.

Go figure...

For the record: it is extortionate pricing because of what it costs vs what is charged. Businesses have to make a certain turnover and profit each day/week/month/year, this doesn't have to come from extortion.

Like I said, people that charge this will try to justify it but I am yet to see any worthy justification.

I think that if a product needs so much persuasion to buy, the price is wrong. If everyone's customers just hand over their money without objection then it's clearly not extortionate pricing for you.

Does anyone have an argument for such high pricing other than paying business rates?? Forget skill: that doesn't justify extortionate prices just because you deliver a job that should be at that standard anyway. You don't expect a mechanic to be rubbish but because there are so many, we now have this obscure vision of paying more for what SHOULD be the industry standard anyway.

So you think a branded tshirt costs £30-40 to make for example?

In % terms I don't think the margins would work out much different to some of the canvas prices bounced around in here.

 

[Johnd2000]

But then surely some responsibility is with the client to check additional product cost before hand.

Well, yes you could just shrug and say caveat emptor. But it still leaves a bad taste in the mouth for consumers who don't quite know what they want as outputs. If the net result is that the customer feels ripped off then everyone loses in the end.

 

[Johnd2000]

My two little ones had their portraits done in Nursery. There was a selection of poses, in colour and B&W. we were offered different packages with an assortment of sizes, none were suitable, in so much as the different size packages didn't give us enough of a selection for family. We also couldn't decide on a 1 or 2 shots out of the selection of poses so we decided to take the option of buying a package on DVD which came in presentation box, thumbnails of the selection of poses (3 in total) and a certificate for the rights of the images so we can go wherever to get whatever prints that we want. This package was, IMO, very reasonable priced at £110.

That's very reasonable. It's not a million miles from what I'd charge for a home shoot + 3 images on disk.

 

[Phil Young]

So you think a branded tshirt costs £30-40 to make for example?

In % terms I don't think the margins would work out much different to some of the canvas prices bounced around in here.

Like I said Neil, a t-shirt wouldn't require loan so I wouldn't feel AS strongly...

But yeah it's extortionate to charge so much for something that costs so little.

But I buy my tshirts from primark for £2.50 anyway lol.

 

[joescrivens]

Phil, can you give us a run down of a studio business that could make a good living charging the prices you would think more reasonable?

Lets say the owner of such an establishment needs to earn a reasonable £30,000 a year before tax .

What are the outgoings and income to make this profitable but also reasonable to the customer?

 

[tiler65]

Like I said Neil, a t-shirt wouldn't require loan so I wouldn't feel AS strongly...

But yeah it's extortionate to charge so much for something that costs so little.

But I buy my tshirts from primark for £2.50 anyway lol.

Out of interest what do you charge per hour for PT that I couldn't get from Fat Bob down the battle cruiser? He knows about keeping fit - he said just do the opposite as him.

 

[ZoneV]

...he said just do the opposite as him.

What's the opposite of farting whilst eating salted nuts?

 

[Phil Young]

Phil, can you give us a run down of a studio business that could make a good living charging the prices you would think more reasonable?

Lets say the owner of such an establishment needs to earn a reasonable £30,000 a year before tax .

What are the outgoings and income to make this profitable but also reasonable to the customer?

No I can't.

 

[Phil V]

Phil, can you give us a run down of a studio business that could make a good living charging the prices you would think more reasonable?

Lets say the owner of such an establishment needs to earn a reasonable £30,000 a year before tax .

What are the outgoings and income to make this profitable but also reasonable to the customer?

This.
If you really want to justify your claim that people who are running a business are borderline criminals (extortion is a crime), then you can give us all some 'back of fag packet' figures to back up your claim.

In your own time - no pressure.

 

[PaulF]

Every time the pro v amateur discussion comes up on TP it's always the same. The pro's point out out that their prices are justifiable and anyone charging less is killing the industry and some others offer the opinion that those prices may seem high to the average consumer.

The OP in this case seems to be one of those average consumers, he went into a studio, after speaking to the photographer and getting a ball park figure, buys a voucher then the ball park figure tripples! Then the pros suggest that he should have got an accurate quote before going to the studio, maybe he should have asked for that in writing too I guess :bang: not the way to get repeat business!

The pros on here who are doing well, fine, I'm genuinely happy for them. I just get a little tired of the 'you part timers are killing the indusrty' stance trotted out so often.
For the record, I am an amateur, never sold or wanted to sell an image to anyone. It's a hobby for me. I have given images away though so I guess I'm killing the industry, sorry about that. To qualify, if anyone reads past the last sentence, I take shots of things I am already at, there's no pro photographer present so not putting anyone out of pocket, it costs me nothing (I'm already there as part of my hobby/day), I could not be bothered with the hassle with tax, oh and it's generally for my son's Scout group.

I could have the same argument that some of the pro's have in my own line of work. Many years ago when I started out there were not too many amateurs who could fix computers (pc's) but as they became easier to work on (OS easier, hardware easier -plug and pray) more and more people knew someone who could fix a broken pc for them for free or a pint. Did I complain about all the amateurs killing 'my' industry? no I changed direction and moved into area's that most amateurs would not touch with a barge pole. Photography seems to be going the same way. Be honest, it's far easier than it once was to produce decent standard images that a lot of consumers would be happy with so the pro's need to provide a service that the average amateur can not. If a part timer is taking your work then maybe the problem does not lie with him but you.

 

[Phil Young]

Out of interest what do you charge per hour for PT that I couldn't get from Fat Bob down the battle cruiser? He knows about keeping fit - he said just do the opposite as him.

He probably doesn't know how to get you from 20% body fat to 8% and increase lean muscle in 12 weeks without ANY exercise, eating a diet consisting 80% carbohydrates including sugar & sweetys, and that provides everything the body needs to function efficiently, healthily & without any side effects.

In fact. I have never met anyone that can do the above so until I do - I will continue to set the standard and all for a FAIR price - the same as what fat Bob will.

 

[DemiLion]

He probably doesn't know how to get you from 20% body fat to 8% and increase lean muscle in 12 weeks without ANY exercise, eating a diet consisting 80% carbohydrates including sugar & sweetys, and that provides everything the body needs to function efficiently, healthily & without any side effects.

In fact. I have never met anyone that can do the above so until I do - I will continue to set the standard and all for a FAIR price - the same as what fat Bob will.

...and that price is?

After all you wouldn't slag off someone else's pricing whilst hiding your own, would you?

 

[tiler65]

Paul, maybe the quality of product that the OP was to be supplied with would be far greater than what an amateur could produce? At this moment we cannot know.

 

[tiler65]

He probably doesn't know how to get you from 20% body fat to 8% and increase lean muscle in 12 weeks without ANY exercise, eating a diet consisting 80% carbohydrates including sugar & sweetys, and that provides everything the body needs to function efficiently, healthily & without any side effects.

In fact. I have never met anyone that can do the above so until I do - I will continue to set the standard and all for a FAIR price - the same as what fat Bob will.

I take It can get one of your DVDs on QVC next week then?

Nobody has more lean muscle than Fat Bob - he is the champion leaner in England!

 

[Brian Sayle]

Hey guys,

I'm hoping someone can please spare a minute to help me without something important. I treated my girlfriend to professional photos of her and I yesterday at a high street photographer/studio...

Pictures all look great and then it came to the convo about pricing...! All 8-10" prints are £20 (Absolutely fine!) and then when it came to the 40x30" canvass that we want (the main reason for the shoot) he said it would be approx in the region of £350-420! I've subsequently searched online and seen you can buy prints on this size canvass at several places for between £50-80.

Can someone please help me to understand what, if anything, I am missing here... because there is an incredibly large difference in price and I cannot afford to pay up to £400 for it. My initial thoughts are buying it in 10x8" and seeing if I can then take that in to somebody for them to copy to a 40x30" canvass for me instead?

I don't know what to expect by way of replies, as this is a desperate attempt for advice and didn't know where to ask? ANY advice would be REALLY helpful (as it's for my girlfriends bday present)!

Thanks!

I don't think you will find anyone who will be willing to copy that 10x8 to the size you want it unless you can show them you own the copywrite, which in this case you won't.

I've had canvas prints made myself in the price range your willing to pay but they haven't been very big but i wanted good quality. The shot you have sounds like the type of thing she might want to pass onto grandchildren in generations time, for it too last your going to have to pay good money out.

 

[Phil Young]

This.
If you really want to justify your claim that people who are running a business are borderline criminals (extortion is a crime), then you can give us all some 'back of fag packet' figures to back up your claim.

In your own time - no pressure.

Phil, I don't see why I should create a business plan for pointing out the extortion of products?

I'm sure the internet will bring these extortionate prices of products down...slightly. The economy of the country / world will dictate the margin of how low they can go.

We're all sad to see Jessops gone but let's face it - everyone wants the best price and in most businesses, that can be done elsewhere for the same high level of service.

Really and truly, the debate is bigger than photographers charging silly prices for their work - for me it's most businesses that overcharge. Why? Because their rates mean they have to. What are their rates paying for?! - the exact same argument here but on a level much higher.

 

[DT01]

For the record: it is extortionate pricing because of what it costs vs what is charged. Businesses have to make a certain turnover and profit each day/week/month/year, this doesn't have to come from extortion.

Phil,

If you say it's extortionate, then it is, to you....and fortunately you are not my target market. My clients don't think my prices are extortionate...any that do, aren't my clients.

If you aren't planning on getting into professional photography to make your living any time soon, you'll find little to challenge your logic. If you do want to rely on your photographic skills to make your living you still have the choice of making a mediocre living using your 'fair' pricing model and that would be your choice. If you want to achieve more than that, you would need to add an understanding of business to your evident photographic skills. As I and others have mentioned it's far more than just rates, a point which you seem keen to ignore.

The value proposition is not based on what it costs against what is charged and to assume this demonstrates a fundamental lack of understanding of this market. The value proposition is based on what is charged v willingness to pay and it's this that tells you whether your prices are in the right ballpark and in this instance you are spot on.

If everyone's customers just hand over their money without objection then it's clearly not extortionate pricing for you.

Yet to you, I would imagine a 20x16 print in a 24x20 frame for 500 quid is probably extortionate, despite the fact that to my clients, it reflects a fair exchange of value. If they don't think it is a fair exchange, they won't buy.

 

[DT01]

most businesses that overcharge. Why? Because their rates mean they have to. What are their rates paying for?! - the exact same argument here but on a level much higher.

It's not about the rates!!!!!!:bonk:

 

[Jayst84]

You can nit pick my replies as much as you like but what do we have here: pros arguing that consumers are paying for their costs hence the pricing. Does the consider care about the costs they are paying for? No.

I argued the exact opposite. I said the costs are irrelevant. You're the one comparing pricing to costs.

For the record: it is extortionate pricing because of what it costs vs what is charged.

That's not what extortion means. And again, you are arguing that pricing should be dependant on costs (whether you understand the costs or not).

Does anyone have an argument for such high pricing other than paying business rates??

It's a completely unnecessary luxury product. The pricing of which has very little to do with business rates. People are free to charge and pay, or not pay, whatever they like.

 

[Phil Young]

...and that price is?

After all you wouldn't slag off someone else's pricing whilst hiding your own, would you?

For example:

An 8-week programme with me that covers comprehensive goal setting including the necessary coaching on how to mentally achieve goals, personal exercise & nutrition plan, bio-mechanics testing & 2 sessions per week with measurements done fortnightly & professional before & after photos which are included in their personal "results" album will cost my client £700 which they are more than willing to pay.

Total time from my side: 20-22hrs work. Could they get the same skill / knowledge elsewhere in a combined package from one person? Good luck...

The average PT will charge £800 for roughly 18 sessions (that are usually just a workout). Is my price vs service FAIR???

 

[Phil Young]

Paul, maybe the quality of product that the OP was to be supplied with would be far greater than what an amateur could produce? At this moment we cannot know.

Pitiful comeback to such a good addition to the conversation. Paul has hit the nail on the head 100% and only elaborates on my original point: change yourself and your product or lose out.

 

[tiler65]

Pitiful comeback to such a good addition to the conversation. Paul has hit the nail on the head 100% and only elaborates on my original point: change yourself and your product or lose out.

Eh?

 

[Yv]

Every time the pro v amateur discussion comes up on TP it's always the same. The pro's point out out that their prices are justifiable and anyone charging less is killing the industry and some others offer the opinion that those prices may seem high to the average consumer.

The OP in this case seems to be one of those average consumers, he went into a studio, after speaking to the photographer and getting a ball park figure, buys a voucher then the ball park figure tripples! Then the pros suggest that he should have got an accurate quote before going to the studio, maybe he should have asked for that in writing too I guess :bang: not the way to get repeat business!

The pros on here who are doing well, fine, I'm genuinely happy for them. I just get a little tired of the 'you part timers are killing the indusrty' stance trotted out so often.
For the record, I am an amateur, never sold or wanted to sell an image to anyone. It's a hobby for me. I have given images away though so I guess I'm killing the industry, sorry about that. To qualify, if anyone reads past the last sentence, I take shots of things I am already at, there's no pro photographer present so not putting anyone out of pocket, it costs me nothing (I'm already there as part of my hobby/day), I could not be bothered with the hassle with tax, oh and it's generally for my son's Scout group.

I could have the same argument that some of the pro's have in my own line of work. Many years ago when I started out there were not too many amateurs who could fix computers (pc's) but as they became easier to work on (OS easier, hardware easier -plug and pray) more and more people knew someone who could fix a broken pc for them for free or a pint. Did I complain about all the amateurs killing 'my' industry? no I changed direction and moved into area's that most amateurs would not touch with a barge pole. Photography seems to be going the same way. Be honest, it's far easier than it once was to produce decent standard images that a lot of consumers would be happy with so the pro's need to provide a service that the average amateur can not. If a part timer is taking your work then maybe the problem does not lie with him but you.

IN fairness, only one person has actually said that, the rest of the 'pro's' posting in here have merely pointed out that pricing has a lot more behind it than just what an actual product costs from our suppliers, not that 'amateurs' are taking away our business.



Now a word with mod hat on, so far things are staying reasonably civil in this thread, can we make sure it stays that way please guys as I think we are all aware of where these threads can end up, we have all seen it before.

 

[Phil Young]

Eh?

It just seems like Paul went one up in the 'battle of amateurs vs professionals' and the only thing that could be said in reply to his statement was to suggest the company were providing an outstanding product that could not be produced by anyone that doesn't do photography for a living.

That's why I said it was pitiful - your comment was indirectly offensive to those not making their living from photography...

 

[tiler65]

Actually a bigger problem with PaulF's last point was that the average Joe is seeing substandard work from amateurs and they think is good, I see it on here all the time when somebody posts a shot and it gets 'great shot' comments when frankly it is dire.

The average Joe needs to into a good pros studio and see the difference.

 

[Phil Young]

IN fairness, only one person has actually said that

LOL only because there aren't many brave enough to face the professionals, it's like throwing yourself into a lion's den

 

[tiler65]

It just seems like Paul went one up in the 'battle of amateurs vs professionals' and the only thing that could be said in reply to his statement was to suggest the company were providing an outstanding product that could not be produced by anyone that doesn't do photography for a living.

That's why I said it was pitiful - your comment was indirectly offensive to those not making their living from photography...

If you look back at my post, it was a question rather than a statement but as usual Phil, you read messages like everyone wants to cause trouble.

Learn to read.

 

[Yv]

LOL only because there aren't many brave enough to face the professionals, it's like throwing yourself into a lion's den

?? :shrug:

I was referring to only one Pro saying that 'amateurs are stealing our business' - only one pro has said that, so nothing to do with facing the pro's

 

[meonshore]

£799 for a 40" canvas??, loxley print superb quality for less than half that

Not with one of David's images on it though, unless he is selling it to one of his clients - for £799.

You are not paying for the materials that physically make up the canvas - you are paying for the value, benefit and pleasure you derive from viewing *that specific image* presented at that size.

FWIW I'll happily only charge you a 25% markup on a £200 blank Loxley canvas

;-)

 

[DemiLion]

For example:

An 8-week programme with me that covers comprehensive goal setting including the necessary coaching on how to mentally achieve goals, personal exercise & nutrition plan, bio-mechanics testing & 2 sessions per week with measurements done fortnightly & professional before & after photos which are included in their personal "results" album will cost my client £700 which they are more than willing to pay.

Total time from my side: 20-22hrs work. Could they get the same skill / knowledge elsewhere in a combined package from one person? Good luck...

The average PT will charge £800 for roughly 18 sessions (that are usually just a workout). Is my price vs service FAIR???

Just in case you think that I'm ignoring your post - I'm not. I'm just crashing out & will reply in the morning!

Fairly impressive website btw.

 

[DT01]

For example:

An 8-week programme with me that covers comprehensive goal setting including the necessary coaching on how to mentally achieve goals, personal exercise & nutrition plan, bio-mechanics testing & 2 sessions per week with measurements done fortnightly & professional before & after photos which are included in their personal "results" album will cost my client £700 which they are more than willing to pay.

Total time from my side: 20-22hrs work. Could they get the same skill / knowledge elsewhere in a combined package from one person? Good luck...

The average PT will charge £800 for roughly 18 sessions (that are usually just a workout). Is my price vs service FAIR???

From what you're saying, you provide a service which is bespoke, client focused and provides a tangible outcome and 'feelgood' factor for the client. This is what might be considered a 'Premium' service. I would be happy to accept that definition for what you've outlined. You've also stated that the 'average' PT will charge 800 for 18 workouts and I would expect this to be accurate given your knowledge of your market.

So in simple terms, you provide a comprehensive, bespoke, premium product for £100 less than what the market says is acceptable for 18 workouts from an average PT. And you think that's fair.

All that demonstrates is that, while you may be an awesome personal trainer (and I'm happy to make that assumption) you are simply not commercially astute.

 

[DemiLion]

?? :shrug:

I was referring to only one Pro saying that 'amateurs are stealing our business' - only one pro has said that, so nothing to do with facing the pro's

Oi!

I didn't say anyone was stealing business, just that I believe a fair price should be charged for the end product!

 

[Phil Young]

Fairly impressive website btw.

Thank you

 

[Phil Young]

From what you're saying, you provide a service which is bespoke, client focused and provides a tangible outcome and 'feelgood' factor for the client. This is what might be considered a 'Premium' service. I would be happy to accept that definition for what you've outlined. You've also stated that the 'average' PT will charge 800 for 18 workouts and I would expect this to be accurate given your knowledge of your market.

So in simple terms, you provide a comprehensive, bespoke, premium product for £100 less than what the market says is acceptable for 18 workouts from an average PT. And you think that's fair.

All that demonstrates is that, while you may be an awesome personal trainer (and I'm happy to make that assumption) you are simply not commercially astute.

Very diplomatic reply Drew and I see exactly what you mean. I COULD charge a lot more...but this would go against my belief in fairness. I charge what I believe is fair and to me, that is the way everyone should be.

I don't resent anyone for making more than I do for less than I give - I get a lot of repeat business & referrals

I know a little bit about a lot of things in business, P&L, marketing, customer relations etc but above everything - I'm still a fair person. That will govern how much money I make ultimately. Bad for me because I will never be rich but good for me because I retain a good status as a fair individual lol.

 

[Yv]

Very diplomatic reply Drew and I see exactly what you mean. I COULD charge a lot more...but this would go against my belief in fairness. I charge what I believe is fair and to me, that is the way everyone should be.

I don't resent anyone for making more than I do for less than I give - I get a lot of repeat business & referrals

I know a little bit about a lot of things in business, P&L, marketing, customer relations etc but above everything - I'm still a fair person. That will govern how much money I make ultimately. Bad for me because I will never be rich but good for me because I retain a good status as a fair individual lol.

I think its fair to say that most people charging whatever price do think they are being fair...in fairness

Sorry Phil, couldn't resist that

 

[DT01]

Originally Posted by DemiLion View Post
Fairly impressive website btw.

Thank you

I have to agree....I'd definitely be tempted to book you if you were near me, especially at that bargain price!

On a serious note, if you produce the results that you claim (speaking as someone who could do with losing weight) I would say that your service or product is worth significantly more than what you charge. Your choice in the end but being fair isn't simply about being cheap.

 

[Laudrup]

If a part timer is taking your work then maybe the problem does not lie with him but you.

Exactly.

 

[Phil Young]

Originally Posted by DemiLion View Post
Fairly impressive website btw.

I have to agree....I'd definitely be tempted to book you if you were near me, especially at that bargain price!

On a serious note, if you produce the results that you claim (speaking as someone who could do with losing weight) I would say that your service or product is worth significantly more than what you charge. Your choice in the end but being fair isn't simply about being cheap.

Thank you, I will take this into serious consideration.

I'm going to change my location later this year so maybe will re-address what my rates and services are.

 

[SimonH]

Is anyone defending the photographer giving a ball park figure which is a third of the price he ultimately intends to charge? Because this is what is at issue, here.

In deference to the OP, this isn't about pro vs amateur tog pricing, it's about "bait and switch" sales practices, which are against the 2008 Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations.

 

[woof woof]

Is anyone defending the photographer giving a ball park figure which is a third of the price he ultimately intends to charge? Because this is what is at issue, here.

I think this is probably quite common. An ex of mine, a truly beautiful lady, thought it'd be nice to get some shots done for her parents. She thought a reasonable price had been agreed... and walked out paying much much more.

It's a minority who are misleading customers or at least not being clear enough that do more damage than any pro v amateur price arguments IMVHO.