Just had Professional Photographs Taken, ADVICE DESPERATELY NEEDED!!

[tiler65]

Is anyone defending the photographer giving a ball park figure which is a third of the price he ultimately intends to charge? Because this is what is at issue, here.

In deference to the OP, this isn't about pro vs amateur tog pricing, it's about "bait and switch" sales practices, which are against the 2008 Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations.

Part of the issue is not enough info from the OP.

He states he asked for a quote (which he hasn't informed us as for what) and was given £150. Until we find out what that quote was for, the photographer can't be accused of anything - especially criminal practices.

The op is quite happy to pay for piece of photo paper that costs 20p to print for £20 (100% mark up) why not the same thinking for the canvas?

I suspect it is purely down to what he can afford and nothing to do with being ripped off.

 

[joescrivens]

No I can't.

so if you cant do this, what makes you so sure that your price points are correct?

 

[Steve Smith]

Every time the pro v amateur discussion comes up on TP it's always the same. The pro's point out out that their prices are justifiable and anyone charging less is killing the industry

Anyone charging less is part of the industry. Do Heinz complain about the price of Tesco Value baked beans saying they are destroying the baked bean market?


Steve.

 

[joescrivens]

Anyone charging less is part of the industry. Do Heinz complain about the price of Tesco Value baked beans saying they are destroying the baked bean market?


Steve.

actually i was posting on Talk Heinz just this morning and there was outrage about tesco value beans

 

[Byker28i]

Two quick points. Has anyone mentioned business rates? In our area they are extortionate.

To the op. are you sure you want a 40x30 sized canvas? It's quite a large size, have you measured it out and thought about where it's going?

 

[DemiLion]

Anyone charging less is part of the industry. Do Heinz complain about the price of Tesco Value baked beans saying they are destroying the baked bean market?

Steve.

Do Tesco's employees and shareholders all have second (main) jobs, so that they can afford to sell the beans at a significant amount less than Heinz?

 

[Nod]

As a Tesco shareholder, yes I did. Not so I could afford Heinz to supply cut price beans though (and surely it would be Heinz shareholders losing out...)

Can't be certain but Sainsbury's value beans teaste remarkably like Heinz's and after all, JS have to source their beans from somewhere!

 

[oldfart]

The value of product = value of what customer is willing to pay. If pro gets higher price then price is correct, if he doesnt he goes bankrupt. Market value. Simple.

 

[PaulF]

Paul, maybe the quality of product that the OP was to be supplied with would be far greater than what an amateur could produce? At this moment we cannot know.

Quite true. But, would the OP in this case be able to tell? He appears to be what could be described as a typical customer, ie not a photographer, as he knows little about copyright and why should he!
To put that into context of customer perception though consider if your pc had a fault, I am quite certain that I, the pro IT guy, could fix your issue (hardware or software) to a higher level than your mate who knows a bit about computers. I would be able to not just fix the problem but see where the issue originated from, put measures in place to avoid the same issue happening again etc, your mate could fix the current problem for it to reoccur at a later date. You, as the 'customer' in this case just see's your pc is fixed and is happy in either case. Translate that to the pro photography and it's easy to see why most consumers (not photographers in any way) can often accept an 'amateur' standard of product as being fantastic. Not in any way saying that any pros produce amateur standard work by the way.

The underlying issue for the OP is that his phone conversation with a loose quote for £150 tripled in price once the shoot was done. Not totally sure what the £150 was quoted against but without any evidence to suggest otherwise can only assume it was for the product the OP was interested in.

 

[Johnd2000]

The op is quite happy to pay for piece of photo paper that costs 20p to print for £20 (100% mark up) why not the same thinking for the canvas?

Huh?

 

[the_local_jacko]

Purely from a business point if view, I guess the difference between photography and most industries is that its a truly bespoke service. The images captured will usually only be of any value to one person or a small pool of people. If you produce a tshirt that will sell on mass, you share the costs of design etc across several people, materials become cheaper as a result of bulk buying and your mark up will adjust to reflect this. In the case of photography its a personalised product and not just image but finish, mount, frame etc. Economies of scale is a standard business factor. Some high street chains charge £6 for a 10x8 which is shot in 2 minutes and presented straight out if camera but they have the ability to do 30-40 sittings a day. Another tog may choose to do two sittings a day, invest a lot of time in the shoot and PP and aim to turnover £500 from each session. The consumer chooses at the end of the day where they want to spend their money and if togs get their business model wrong then they simply won't make sales.

All pro togs have the right to implement a business model that works for them just as consumers have a right to choose how they spend their money. If a person approaches a friend to take a shot if them for free then in my eyes that is no different to someone asking their dad to plaster a wall for them. If the market evolves then so must togs as it's all about choice and its no different to any other industry in that respect. In this case the OP he seems to have been mislead which meant his ability to make a considered choice was taken away. It is more of a reflection on one particular tog than the industry in general however.

 

[Thedodo]

I am self employed, I run an entertainment and lighting business, during the summer months 80% of my business is made up from weddings, I know many other people who are in the same trade, and charge nearly double, sometimes more than what I do, do they offer a better service?, well no, they instantly see "wedding" and charge a premium on top, I charge the same rate regardless of the type of function, these competition, are regularly hunting for the next client, and can go weeks without a job, I on the other hand have a consistent workflow, good client base and many referrals.
In this instant charging sensible prices for what I do leads to repeat business and work throughout the year

 

[tiler65]

Huh?

Read the whole of my post, then the statement you quoted will make sense.

 

[treeman]

Yeah I did get quotes over the phone, and he gave me the impression of a ball-park figure approx £150. Therefore I purchased a £150 voucher once I had that initial conversation, and now it seems that when I go back the prices have upped (as he knows I need to use my voucher and is taking liberties!)

I know this thread is slightly devoid of all the facts, but does this not cause a few alarm bells to ring?

Maybe other pro photographers do give "ball park" figures, I know I wouldn't.

 

[PsiFox]

I know this thread is slightly devoid of all the facts, but does this not cause a few alarm bells to ring?

Maybe other pro photographers do give "ball park" figures, I know I wouldn't.

A ball park figure for what?
Average spend
2 10 x 8 prints
A cup of coffee

Was the OP specific about asking the price of a 40x30 canvas?

 

[tiler65]

Quite true. But, would the OP in this case be able to tell? He appears to be what could be described as a typical customer, ie not a photographer, as he knows little about copyright and why should he!
To put that into context of customer perception though consider if your pc had a fault, I am quite certain that I, the pro IT guy, could fix your issue (hardware or software) to a higher level than your mate who knows a bit about computers. I would be able to not just fix the problem but see where the issue originated from, put measures in place to avoid the same issue happening again etc, your mate could fix the current problem for it to reoccur at a later date. You, as the 'customer' in this case just see's your pc is fixed and is happy in either case. Translate that to the pro photography and it's easy to see why most consumers (not photographers in any way) can often accept an 'amateur' standard of product as being fantastic. Not in any way saying that any pros produce amateur standard work by the way.

The underlying issue for the OP is that his phone conversation with a loose quote for £150 tripled in price once the shoot was done. Not totally sure what the £150 was quoted against but without any evidence to suggest otherwise can only assume it was for the product the OP was interested in.

But the problem with your analogy is that the OP wanted a 'pro' service ie a paid for service and who is to say that my mate down the pub cannot fix my PC to the exacting standards that you can, the two are not comparable.

As for the last point you are speculating, we can assume many things about what his quote was for.

 

[PaulF]

Read the whole of my post, then the statement you quoted will make sense.

I think it may been the maths, 100% markup on 20p would be 40p not £20 based on cost. The markup in your example would be nearer 1000%

I would assume you were not basing the % on selling price as you could pick any final price and the markup would then be 99.XX% as the stated cost is so low compared to the final selling price in your example. Ie 20p to £1000 would be 99.98% (markup divided by selling price, £999.80/£1000) aint maths great

 

[joescrivens]

Tom meant to write 100x markup, not 100%.

He is getting old, cut the old boy some slack.

 

[tiler65]

Tom meant to write 100x markup, not 100%.

He is getting old, cut the old boy some slack.

Thank you Joe, good spot, I shan't change it though as other posts/posters will be affected and maybe they will not come back to carry on the discussion.

 

[PaulF]

But the problem with your analogy is that the OP wanted a 'pro' service ie a paid for service and who is to say that my mate down the pub cannot fix my PC to the exacting standards that you can, the two are not comparable.

As for the last point you are speculating, we can assume many things about what his quote was for.

Hi Tom,

I was kind of agreeing with you but was pointing out that the perception of a pro product may not differ that greatly to an amateur one to the average customer.
You are unknowingly illustrating my point with you response. Your mate down the pub 'may' be able to fix a pc to my exacting standards but you have no idea of how you would be able to tell the difference. You just see the end result, pc fixed/excellent image.
To many average people in the street a good amateur shot is, well, good enough and they have no idea or concept as to the training and years of experience required.

I suspect the original issue is down to poor communication between the pro and the customer, looks like that has cost the pro a sale or at least waisted his time a little.

 

[tiler65]

I think it may been the maths, 100% markup on 20p would be 40p not £20 based on cost. The markup in your example would be nearer 1000%

I would assume you were not basing the % on selling price as you could pick any final price and the markup would then be 99.XX% as the stated cost is so low compared to the final selling price in your example. Ie 20p to £1000 would be 99.98% (markup divided by selling price, £999.80/£1000) aint maths great

Or it could have been a typo and I missed a nought off.........(but I didn't, back of the class for me.)

 

[dod]

Read the whole of my post, then the statement you quoted will make sense.

It might make sense if you assume there is no top end budget.

As it is however the customer has already stated that his expectation was circa £150. We're not sure what that was for though so it looks like a communication issue of some sort. Both parties are probably partially responsible.

 

[tiler65]

It might make sense if you assume there is no top end budget.

As it is however the customer has already stated that his expectation was circa £150. We're not sure what that was for though so it looks like a communication issue of some sort. Both parties are probably partially responsible.

Err...sorry..if you read my posts I stated ages ago that there was not enough info from the OP to decide what the expectation was, that is the most important fact in the whole issue.

And by the way, not helped by post like #79. imo of course.

 

[Milkfloat]

I cannot be bothered to read all the arguments, but did you all agree that the Op should just scan the best print he has himself and then get someone on ebay to knock up a canvas for him for £40? If you didn't I assume that he got bored very quickly with the bickering and worked it out himself.

 

[Thedodo]

I cannot be bothered to read all the arguments, but did you all agree that the Op should just scan the best print he has himself and then get someone on ebay to knock up a canvas for him for £40? If you didn't I assume that he got bored very quickly with the bickering and worked it out himself.

No one agreed to that, as it would be a breach of the photographers copyright

 

[Laudrup]

Err...sorry..if you read my posts I stated ages ago that there was not enough info from the OP to decide what the expectation was, that is the most important fact in the whole issue.

And by the way, not helped by post like #79. imo of course.

The OP said:

Yeah I did get quotes over the phone, and he gave me the impression of a ball-park figure approx £150. Therefore I purchased a £150 voucher once I had that initial conversation, and now it seems that when I go back the prices have upped (as he knows I need to use my voucher and is taking liberties!)

So quoted £150 and then it shoots up to £400? He has the vouchers so they have him over a barrel. Is it any wonder an amateur can take your business?

 

[ZoneV]

I cannot be bothered to read all the arguments, but did you all agree that the Op should just scan the best print he has himself and then get someone on ebay to knock up a canvas for him for £40? If you didn't I assume that he got bored very quickly with the bickering and worked it out himself.

You should read the first page. He asks for a service "to scan and print" so he may not have a scanner of his own. He was unaware of the copyright implications until it was explained to him (way before any bickering started).

Whatever he decides to do at least he knows the facts now.

 

[Milkfloat]

No one agreed to that, as it would be a breach of the photographers copyright

Indeed it would - I am just trying to think like the average consumer who does not know any better and also poke fun at rather silly argument that has been covered many times before.

 

[tiler65]

The OP said:



So quoted £150 and then it shoots up to £400? He has the vouchers so they have him over a barrel. Is it any wonder an amateur can take your business?

Quotes for what though?

 

[dod]

Err...sorry..if you read my posts I stated ages ago that there was not enough info from the OP to decide what the expectation was, that is the most important fact in the whole issue.

And by the way, not helped by post like #79. imo of course.

There was actually. He stated the point of the shoot was a 40X30 canvas. He said he had a price of £150. It's reasonable therefore to assume that he asked for the price of a 40X30.

When he went to order the price was different.

That leaves two conclusions:

a) the OP didn't actually ask for what he thought he was asking for
b) the photographer didn't quote for what he was asked for or misunderstood the request.

I don't know which is right.

The posts going on about photographers costs aren't particularly helpful here either, they may be valid in a discussion about rates but they've nothing to do with the OP's issue.

edit: copies of relevant posts

All 8-10" prints are £20 (Absolutely fine!) and then when it came to the 40x30" canvass that we want (the main reason for the shoot)

Yeah I did get quotes over the phone, and he gave me the impression of a ball-park figure approx £150. Therefore I purchased a £150 voucher

 

[tiler65]

There was actually. He stated the point of the shoot was a 40X30 canvas. He said he had a price of £150. It's reasonable therefore to assume that he asked for the price of a 40X30.

When he went to order the price was different.

That leaves two conclusions:

a) the OP didn't actually ask for what he thought he was asking for
b) the photographer didn't quote for what he was asked for or misunderstood the request.

I don't know which is right.

The posts going on about photographers costs aren't particularly helpful here either, they may be valid in a discussion about rates but they've nothing to do with the OP's issue.

Dod, he doesn't actually state that the quote was for a canvas anywhere. He states in his first post, he asked about the canvas and was told a figure approx £400.

 

[ZoneV]

The OP said:



So quoted £150 and then it shoots up to £400? He has the vouchers so they have him over a barrel. Is it any wonder an amateur can take your business?

I agree but to be fair we don't know the natue of the quote.

Did the photographer know the customer's requirements, e.g. "I will do X, Y & Z for £150"

Or was the "quote" a more general estimation/guide price, e.g. "Typically, people spend around £150 on prints after a shoot."

There is a big difference between the two.

 

[Phil Young]

The posts going on about photographers costs aren't particularly helpful here either, they may be valid in a discussion about rates but they've nothing to do with the OP's issue.

Don't we do the same thing when someone asks for help on a certain company to buy a lens and then it's later advised to go somewhere else that's cheaper???

I'm not suggesting this thread has been handled in the best way but there is a lot of potentially useful information in there...if one looks passed the arguing.

 

[treeman]

A ball park figure for what?
Average spend
2 10 x 8 prints
A cup of coffee

Was the OP specific about asking the price of a 40x30 canvas?

Quite, that's why I said we were a little devoid of all the facts.

But my point was no one should be coming off the phone to a professional photographer with,

a) a "ball park figure"

or

b) an "impression" of a cost

Unless of course the photographer was being deliberately vague :shrug:

 

[dod]

Dod, he doesn't actually state that the quote was for a canvas anywhere. He states in his first post, he asked about the canvas and was told a figure approx £400.

True, but he stated the point of the shoot was a 40X30 canvas. It was also after getting a quote on the phone and paying for a voucher.

If you wanted a 40X30 canvas and phoned a photographer for quotes don't you think it's reasonable to expect the conversation to include the size of canvas at some point??

The photographer clearly established he didn't want a single 10X8 print, hence the quote for £150 :shrug:

 

[tiler65]

True, but he stated the point of the shoot was a 40X30 canvas. It was also after getting a quote on the phone and paying for a voucher.

If you wanted a 40X30 canvas and phoned a photographer for quotes don't you think it's reasonable to expect the conversation to include the size of canvas at some point??

The photographer clearly established he didn't want a single 10X8 print, hence the quote for £150 :shrug:

I would but until the nature of the quote is resolved there is nothing anyone can do but speculate which the thing I am asking everyone to avoid.

What should be done is some fast touch typist, draw up a bullet list of scenarios with the correct pursuit for the correct outcome, then all anyone needs to do is pick - if answer to q 1 is yes go to answer 4 .....and so on.

 

[Phil Young]

With many years under my belt in sales & sales management I would bet my bank account on the conversation going something like this:

New customer phones studio (OP): to discuss shoot.

Sales person talks about the exciting experience they will have.

OP: asks about prices for canvases.

Sales person: Tries to get them in without giving prices.

OP: Ballpark figure?

Sales person: Gives the cheapest canvas price in order not to scare them off.

Different price presenter at point of sale: presents canvas sizes that were not spoke of before.

For me it just looks like an age old sales trick. Technically nobody is in the wrong but I suspect the sales people were not as good as they should be or there was no communication between the two employees and conversations.

 

[PsiFox]

With many years under my belt in sales & sales management I would bet my bank account on the conversation going something like this:

New customer phones studio (OP): to discuss shoot.

Sales person talks about the exciting experience they will have.

OP: asks about prices for canvases.

Sales person: Tries to get them in without giving prices.

OP: Ballpark figure?

Sales person: Gives the cheapest canvas price in order not to scare them off.


As we don't know, this is complete supposition.
You cannot blame the photographer from the info we have received to date.
Disgruntled customers are always completely honest are they not?
You should also be blaming the OP for not giving full info as he seems to have left the thread.
Different price presenter at point of sale: presents canvas sizes that were not spoke of before.

For me it just looks like an age old sales trick. Technically nobody is in the wrong but I suspect the sales people were not as good as they should be or there was no communication between the two employees and conversations.

As we don't know, this is complete supposition.
You cannot blame the photographer from the info we have received to date.
Disgruntled customers are always completely honest are they not?
You should also be blaming the OP for not giving full info as he seems to have left the thread.

 

[Thedodo]

With many years under my belt in sales & sales management I would bet my bank account on the conversation going something like this:

New customer phones studio (OP): to discuss shoot.

Sales person talks about the exciting experience they will have.

OP: asks about prices for canvases.

Sales person: Tries to get them in without giving prices.

OP: Ballpark figure?

Sales person: Gives the cheapest canvas price in order not to scare them off.

Different price presenter at point of sale: presents canvas sizes that were not spoke of before.

For me it just looks like an age old sales trick. Technically nobody is in the wrong but I suspect the sales people were not as good as they should be or there was no communication between the two employees and conversations.

I think you have the scenario pretty much bang on there!

 

[SixToes]

True, but he stated the point of the shoot was a 40X30 canvas. It was also after getting a quote on the phone and paying for a voucher.

If you wanted a 40X30 canvas and phoned a photographer for quotes don't you think it's reasonable to expect the conversation to include the size of canvas at some point??

The photographer clearly established he didn't want a single 10X8 print, hence the quote for £150 :shrug:

I tried to make this point 100 posts ago, but some people here would rather have their favourite argument again than look at what the OP has actually said :shrug: