London tower block on fire

Byker28i said:
The first crews got there within 6 mins. Other crews shortly afterwards.

What you also need to realise is the number of fires have reduced by half, due to improved fire prevention.

You also need to check the stats rather than rely on some faceberk post,

https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/fire-statistics

Latest stats give a 7% drop in fires, and almost half the fatalities over the previous 6 month.
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This came up on my Facebook feed yesterday, can't be sure of the veracity of the claims regarding fire deaths, and as a fireman he has his own bias but it does give another argument.
 
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Byker28i said:
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Tbf its hard to imagine people in 3 merchant sq leaving rubbish in corridor in the first place.
 
Graham W said:
You could say that as a fireman he has his own bias, or you could say that as a fireman he knows what he's talking about.
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That depends, true there have been lots of cuts, and these are nationally and not just in London. It's a balance of cost v benefit as at the end of the day the fire service is obviously funded it's tax payers money. Thankfully events like these are extremely rare, and in fact to this extent pretty much unheard of in this country.

I very much doubt there was anything that could have been done to change the outcome of this due to a number of factors. E.g. Time of day, lack of alarms, lack of fire suppression systems, rapid fire spread etc.

In most cases the key is prevention rather than response. Although there will always be a need for response, but in these days of financial pressures unfortunately an assessment needs to be made as to where funding is concentrated.

When I joined the fire service in 1985 my service had around 50% more staff than now, and attended over 50% more calls, though simple number do not tell the full story, you need to look at the type of calls, for example we used to attend thousands of false automatic fire alarms, and malicious calls. These have been drastically reduced, I still think the fire service is able to provide a real emergency response despite the cuts, especially if you compare the percentage of time spent at incidents compared to the ambulance service. However I think we are now reaching the tipping point, I have no doubt the FBU will use this incident for political gains, however it appears to be more of a regulatory / building issue than lack of ability to respond.

There have been lots of conclusions jumped to already, and many may be correct, but it would be best to wait until a proper investigation has been carried out before getting out the torches and pitch forks.
 
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rick448 said:
That depends, true there have been lots of cuts, and these are nationally and not just in London. It's a balance of cost v benefit as at the end of the day the fire service is obviously funded it's tax payers money. Thankfully events like these are extremely rare, and in fact to this extent pretty much unheard of in this country.

I very much doubt there was anything that could have been done to change the outcome of this due to a number of factors. E.g. Time of day, lack of alarms, lack of fire suppression systems, rapid fire spread etc.

In most cases the key is prevention rather than response. Although there will always be a need for response, but in these days of financial pressures unfortunately an assessment needs to be made as to where funding is concentrated.

When I joined the fire service in 1985 my service had around 50% more staff than now, and attended over 50% more calls, though simple number do not tell the full story, you need to look at the type of calls, for example we used to attend thousands of false automatic fire alarms, and malicious calls. These have been drastically reduced, I still think the fire service is able to provide a real emergency response despite the cuts, especially if you compare the percentage of time spent at incidents compared to the ambulance service. However I think we are now reaching the tipping point, I have no doubt the FBU will use this incident for political gains, however it appears to be more of a regulatory / building issue than lack of ability to respond.

There have been lots of conclusions jumped to already, and many may be correct, but it would be best to wait until a proper investigation has been carried out before getting out the torches and pitch forks.
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Is t true about fire fatalities then, they don't include those from smoke inhalation. Seems unlikely to me as I thought most deaths in a fire is due to this
 
jakeblu said:
Is t true about fire fatalities then, they don't include those from smoke inhalation. Seems unlikely to me as I thought most deaths in a fire is due to this
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Yes, that does seem very odd.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...6154/fire-statistics-definitions-hosb0916.pdf

The Gov fire statistics definitions state that:-
Fire-related fatalities are, in general, those that would not have otherwise occurred had there not been a fire. i.e. ‘no fire = no death’. This includes any fatal casualty which is the direct or indirect result of injuries caused by a fire incident. Even if the fatal casualty dies subsequently, any fatality whose cause is attributed to a fire is included, sometimes following road traffic collisions. For the purpose of publications, published figures include the number of fatal casualties which were either recorded as ‘firerelated’ or ‘don’t know’, grouped together as fire-related death.
 
jakeblu said:
Is t true about fire fatalities then, they don't include those from smoke inhalation. Seems unlikely to me as I thought most deaths in a fire is due to this
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I'm not sure on that, although I'd be very surprised, as you say most deaths in fire are through smoke inhalation. I'd assume the FF who has posted that on FB is an FBU member and they are using this tradgedy to make a statement. There is a time and place for that type of discussion, but in my opinion, now is not the time and social media is not the place.

It is very unfortunate that the media and anyone with an axe to grind tend to use these events to make their points.
 
rick448 said:
I'm not sure on that, although I'd be very surprised, as you say most deaths in fire are through smoke inhalation. I'd assume the FF who has posted that on FB is an FBU member and they are using this tradgedy to make a statement. There is a time and place for that type of discussion, but in my opinion, now is not the time and social media is not the place.

It is very unfortunate that the media and anyone with an axe to grind tend to use these events to make their points.
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Yes he clearly making point, I went on to his FB page, he's definitely is/was a fireman, photographer too, I wonder if he is on here? Also he is no supporter of the government. I'm not so sure about your comment of this not being the time or the place, to be honest this disaster is in part due to political intransigence, its the way that ordinary people are being treated in a rich suburb and how penny pinching is likely to have had a devastating effect on those peoples lives. Although, it is too early to say why the fire spread like it did. Those who have suffered have every right to blame this and previous governments, regardless of their political persuasion.
 
So how many people were known to live in the building? How many got out? 70 odd are in hospital. 30 odd declared dead. Where are the rest? It feels to me hundreds are unaccounted for as otherwise why wouldn't they say if hundreds got out ok. If it is more like less than a 100 then there is 300+ people totally unaccounted for.
 
srichards said:
So how many people were known to live in the building? How many got out? 70 odd are in hospital. 30 odd declared dead. Where are the rest? It feels to me hundreds are unaccounted for as otherwise why wouldn't they say if hundreds got out ok. If it is more like less than a 100 then there is 300+ people totally unaccounted for.
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I heard on R4 a councillor say it was not uncommon for up to 6 people to share one bedroom in this area, so probably people living in these flats the authorities are unaware of. Add that to the 100's they do know about but are apparently missing and I fear this could be the biggest post war disaster in UK.
 
BBR said:
I heard on R4 a councillor say it was not uncommon for up to 6 people to share one bedroom in this area, so probably people living in these flats the authorities are unaware of. Add that to the 100's they do know about but are apparently missing and I fear this could be the biggest post war disaster in UK.
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:(

I don't think its been mentioned here yet, its now suggested that the fire was started on the 4th floor by a "faulty fridge"
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ndon-kensington-disaster-latest-a7792566.html
 
srichards said:
So how many people were known to live in the building? How many got out? 70 odd are in hospital. 30 odd declared dead. Where are the rest? It feels to me hundreds are unaccounted for as otherwise why wouldn't they say if hundreds got out ok. If it is more like less than a 100 then there is 300+ people totally unaccounted for.
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There's plenty of survivors out, not injured or at least not sufficiently to be hospitalised.
Many have given interviews / statements, and I'm guessing many more not interested in the media furore.
 
Mr Bump said:
Looks like the folk who haven't had much to protest about see an opportunity for a good riot any minute now.
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And get ready for it - any opportunity for some
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The full wording

Movement for Justice By Any Means Necessary said:
Grenfell Tower & a rotten coalition government… DAY OF RAGE
Queens Speech, Wed 21 June
Shut Down London - Bring Down the Government

Walk out of school, take the day off, call in sick, strike…
Meet Shepherds Bush 1pm to march on Parliament

  • Justice for Grenfell Tower residents. No Cover up – the full truth must be told NOW.
  • Stop the social & ethnic cleansing of London – reverse the cuts & sell offs of council housing, for a London wide programme of council homes building & rent controls. Quality, safe & affordable homes for ALL
  • Stop the scapegoating of immigrants - defend freedom of movement. No new immigration controls. End tuition fees & bring back EMA – free education is a right.
  • End Austerity; reverse the cuts and attacks on our public services.
Grenfell: tears and rage

On Wednesday morning, 14 June, we woke up to the devastating scenes of fire raging through Grenfell Tower. Words cannot do justice to the heartbreaking sadness, solidarity and absolute fury we are all feeling.

What will likely be over 100 working-class and poor people, of all races and faiths, immigrants and citizens, were murdered by this rotten capitalist system, which puts profit before people. In the faces of those who escaped, their friends, family and community we see ourselves. In the outpouring of practical solidarity and support we have felt the unity of our integrated, proud and defiant London family.

In one of the wealthiest boroughs in the country, the demands from poor and working class residents for the simple right to safety and security have been repeatedly and disdainfully ignored. Combustible cladding was put on Grenfell Tower to hide raw concrete from the delicate eyes of wealthy homeowners and millionaire investors with no concern for safety. Our lives are cheap to the billionaire property developers in their bloodthirsty quest for profit.

Comparisons have been made to Hurricane Katrina in the US; the criminal negligence and racism shown towards those overwhelmingly black, poor and working class communities. Though integrated, the majority of residents in Grenfill Tower were black, Arab, Asian and immigrant families; many homes will have included undocumented friends and family who may never be identified. Everyone knows they are drip-feeding us information, withholding numbers of those dead for fear of our rage. Families, friends and loved ones are left to search hospital to hospital, pleading to see if their loved one is there. The community and people from across London have been holding together the local relief effort with little support or back up – we do this because we feel deeply the pain and loss, while those in power prepare their excuses, diversions and cover-up. Across London and beyond, for everyone who has lived in council housing, social housing or asylum housing we know only too well the stink of ass covering and buck passing. The council blame the contractors, the contractors blame the fire regulations, the politicians blame each other and so it continues. The fact is we will have no truth or justice whilst Theresa Mays government with her cabinet of millionaires holds sway – they have got to go.

Class war – no justice, no peace; bring down the government

Theresa May presides over a government, which uses racism and anti immigrant bigotry to hold on to power. For seven years we have lived through brutal austerity, cuts & anti-immigrant attacks leading to countless deaths. The Tories and their buddies in UKIP raced each other for who could be the most racist in the run up to Brexit; a vile referendum built on the back of scapegoating immigrants. May and her rich, corrupt friends in government sow division in the working class; demonizing Muslim communities and scapegoating immigrants to divert from its war crimes. Because this IS war, a class war, and right now, though we are grieving we must also go on the offensive to ensure a tragedy like this does not happen again.

Politicians, and many community and religious leaders will be looking to divert our rage and fury into inquiries, investigations, reports, court hearings, and parliamentary processes. We all know how that turns out. From Bloody Sunday, to Hillsborough – unless we build our independent movement on the streets and in our communities and schools, those mechanisms for reaching truth and justice will be delayed, corrupted, minimized and rendered toothless; ‘justice’ will be delayed, which means justice will be denied. We will not accept those brush-offs and diversions, we will not settle for less than the destruction of Mays coalition of austerity & bigotry – we must bring down this government.

We are stronger than we know

Our generation, with black, Asian, Muslim and immigrant youth at the forefront, a generation that has fought hard on every front; from racist wars to police brutality, from education cuts to immigrant rights, have instigated a seismic shift to the left in the political landscape in the recent election. The ruling class and their politicians have been caught by surprise and flail in desperation to regain control. What has happened since last Friday’s election result both affirms the righteousness of the wave of anger and determination, which destroyed Theresa May’s authority at the ballot box, AND is a stark warning that we cannot wait or rely on electoral or judicial processes to win justice.

With last week’s election result we delivered a blow to the racist scapegoating of immigrants, which has been the fallback policy of politicians in all of the main parties for more than three decades. It’s led to the humiliation of Theresa May and a unstable government in coalition with the ultra right, unionist anti-Catholic, anti LGBT, anti women’s rights Democratic Unionist Party (DUP).

We’ve felt our power. We’ve tasted victory. Now we must escalate our actions to take down this rotten government, which has lost all authority to govern.

Lets make 21st June, the day of the Queens speech A DAY OF RAGE, a day we shut down London, a declaration that there will be no peace until this government is brought down.
 
The thing is, their demands are pointless, but don't let that get in the way of social media driven putrage

Justice for Grenfell Tower residents. No Cover up – the full truth must be told NOW.
Only how? They can even get into some areas yet as it's unsafe - how can you have a full investigation until the bodies are recovered

Stop the social & ethnic cleansing of London – reverse the cuts & sell offs of council housing, for a London wide programme of council homes building & rent controls. Quality, safe & affordable homes for ALL
Wasn't the majority of Grenfell social housing?

Stop the scapegoating of immigrants - defend freedom of movement. No new immigration controls. End tuition fees & bring back EMA – free education is a right.
Hang on - what's tuition fees got to do with the fire? As for freedom of movement and immigration controls - thats what the slight majority voted for.

End Austerity; reverse the cuts and attacks on our public services.
Limited money, limited funds, but didn't the government say the other day that they'd listen to the results and austerity was over.

So basically, they're going to have a protest for no real reason
 
We don't need an investigation, the Daily Wail have already worked out who's to blame

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Reckon they might even wheel out that retard swampy he hasn't had a ruck in ages.
 
Byker28i said:
That was reported almost immediately on the morning of the fire.
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Ah OK I hadn't heard that as a reason, in fact I'd not heard of any "reason" till today.
 
I have mixed views on the whole protest thing.

A polite letter to the council, having a word in the ear of an M.P. or waving a, "Put an end to this sort of thing" banner, are all ignored.

More heated point making when nothing is happening is ignored.

So, what to do?
 
simon ess said:
I have mixed views on the whole protest thing.

A polite letter to the council, having a word in the ear of an M.P. or waving a, "Put an end to this sort of thing" banner, are all ignored.

More heated point making when nothing is happening is ignored.

So, what to do?
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Reading the post about calling for a protest, it reads exactly like the s***e that used to be handed out every month by "activists" just trying to stir things up. These are people who aren't really anything to do with what has or is happening, they have nothing to lose and nothing to gain, they will likely get the support of some, but they will also get the backs up of many others and lose sympathy for those concerned.
 
simon ess said:
I have mixed views on the whole protest thing.

A polite letter to the council, having a word in the ear of an M.P. or waving a, "Put an end to this sort of thing" banner, are all ignored.

More heated point making when nothing is happening is ignored.

So, what to do?
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Have a private meeting with the pm for over two hours and agree on a way forward, as happened this afternoon.
 
neil_g said:
Maybe, maybe not. But politicians need to be afraid of losing power. Not relying on people's complacency, blind unchanging loyalty or trying to put fear of change into people.
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Doesn't help with people prepared to make political capital out of the tragedy.
 
neil_g said:
Maybe, maybe not. But politicians need to be afraid of losing power. Not relying on people's complacency, blind unchanging loyalty or trying to put fear of change into people.
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Indeed. But I won't hold my breath.

Byker28i said:
Have a private meeting with the pm for over two hours and agree on a way forward, as happened this afternoon.
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A bit late for the victims and only possible because there are victims.

Exactly my point, sadly.
 
Stay away May, wrote some of the residents.
Dammed if she does, dammed if she doesn't.

What do you want done then? What should they be doing.
Investigation is difficult seeing as the building is unsafe and they need to recover the bodies first.
 
Byker28i said:
From a firefighter that was there
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1447285685292169&id=145655258788558
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I'm afraid the STUKFS site lost all credibility with me when it stated that it wished my ex Cheif Fire Officer would be killed when providing fire cover during the last strike.

Some valid points in the post, but this is a one off in someone's career, and even then probably only for the relative few who attended. I've seen many tragic scenes over the years, but to be honest that is what the job is, and what you get paid to do. I'd never take anything away from those who attended this incident, but again I'd say, don't use it to make political points.
 
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