London tower block on fire

ianp5a said:
These letters to politicians shows that there 'seems' to be no approved communication standards. In other words, important issues cannot be kicked around until somebody dies. Only a technical person, not a politician can decide if there is a danger of death. Money does not come into it. Before they can issue a danger of death notice, the technical experts must have the facts on hand that fit exacting technical criteria. Once danger of death notices have been given, politicians legally have to respond. They are now responsible. This gives them the ammunition they need to make all necessary changes. They should not be in a position to postpone it. They mustn't be allowed to prioritise. They can't choose who lives and who dies.
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When I started reading this, I was nodding in agreement. But I stopped nodding, and by the end I was in almost complete disagreement.

Money does come into it. Money always comes into it. It has to. There is a "danger of death" in almost everything we do. Walking down stairs. Using electrical apparatus. Driving cars, or walking along streets where cars are being driven. Taking medicines. It impossible to avoid danger of death. So what we as a society do is try to manage the risk down to the point where it is widely judged to be acceptable. We pay professionals to do those cost/benefit calculations and we elect politicians to oversee the whole thing and to decide what is worth spending our money on and what isn't. If the politicians make decisions which we, as a society, think are wrong then we can sack them and elect some different ones. That's how it works.

I have some sympathy with your view that the communications channels seem to be rather imprecise for such important issues. Perhaps we would benefit from an improved system whereby politicians can be "officially" advised of a hazard that needs investigation and prioritisation, or at least an "official" response. But perhaps not. Just as we expect our politicians to spend some of our money wisely on our behalf, so I think we have a responsibility to use our politicians' limited resources of time and attention wisely. A system that allowed some interest groups to "officially" shout louder and demand that their concerns be addressed might not be in the best overall interests of society.
 
tijuana taxi said:
Same as the Bradford City fire, lessons learnt there and in both cases smoking was prohibited, the former completely and with the latter in wooden stands.

I keep reading about a gas pipe in Grenfell Tower, thought tower blocks were made all electric after Ronan Point, definitely were in my neck of the woods.
The five twenty one storey blocks that overlooked the O's ground were pulled down ages ago, maybe about time they all were. Lots of my friends lived there and hated it, they housed people from nearby two up, two down houses with outside bogs that were demolished
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The gas was part of the upgrade. Additional external insulation to meet current standards, new double glazed windows and new gas boilers in each flat, rather than the old central heating system. It had led to complaints about the pipework fitting as there wasn't voids to run the pipework so it was exposed. Apparently some of the windows weren't sealed correctly leaving gaps around the frames.
 
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Cobra said:
This is the bit I was referring to /\ when I said
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I refered to the miners strike because it was a year long issue and had implications all over the UK. Social media would have put massive presure on areas and issues involved in the strike that escaped such influances in 1984/5.

The strike was almost won by the miners but because NACODS came in and worked the lifts and carried out maintainance work scabs where able to work. The government did not cave in as they were about to do.

In a social media drivin world all the NACODS could have had their names splashed all over social media as would scabs. Plus all the strike arranagements and use of the likes of " whats ap" to organise would have made a completely different sutuation. Those are just some points.

It not always been the same. Social media has a big impact on the way government and any bodies of authority operate. Even private companies employ people to answer twitter feeds all day and every day (Virgin)

That's what I mean by it has not always been the same.

Social media good or bad? I don't know. :thinking:
 
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Dave70D said:
With the fire service, they put out the fire on the 4th floor but sadly it must of been in the walls or cladding when they saw the tower outside in flames.
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That was how I read it - which implies to me that they may have some responsibility after having actually attended and failed to deal with it fully - not that I want to chuck blame about. This is probably one of those situations where one has to wait for the enquiry to know what really happened.
 
How awesome is the charity single. Strong lyrics from Stormzy
Well done Simon Cowell for organising and throwing £100K into the pot
 
Byker28i said:
How awesome is the charity single. Strong lyrics from Stormzy
Well done Simon Cowell for organising and throwing £100K into the pot
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Sorry, but the version itself is dire.
The reason for it is admirable.
 
viv1969 said:
Sorry, but the version itself is dire.
The reason for it is admirable.
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Totally agree !
Chris Evens was playing it Ad nauseam on his show this morning :(
 
nickEnackEnoo said:
of course your opinions are permitted ... indeed they are of utmost importance, especially when they often consist of "life's too short, move on"
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Isn't that, pretty much, exactly what you posted?
 
Cobra said:
The Devil punishes evil people ( apparently) so does that make him "good" ?
;)
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One of the hard ones, eh? :D

If he got the job from God and is therefor carrying out orders, he must be one of the good guys.

On the other hand, if he's freelancing, then he must be one of the bad guys.

Of course, he might be working on a zero hours contract. So when he's working for the the front office he's good and when he's doing his own thing he's bad.

I think... :exit:
 
And look how quickly other areas/authorities are jumping in to say that their high rise blocks were not using the same stuff as was used on Grenfell Tower
 
There is no outright ban on these materials, that guardian article is pretty poorly written by someone who has given the regs a cursory glance rather than fully understood them. It seems they are more interested in selling papers off the back off a sensationalist headline than be factual.

Although there is no outright ban on flammable material, there are restrictions and safeguards. To speculate where the process went wrong or simply stating that the cladding shouldn't have been used because it was banned is not helpful. But I guess you got to make the most out of a story while you can rather than wait for the outcomes of the enquiry.
 
What a stupid thing to say, he needs to say the same to the victims families.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40366646

This bit is stupid

Extra checks by the fire service would determine whether the buildings were safe and what - if any - action needed to be taken, the prime minister's spokesman said.

He pointed out that a failed cladding test did not necessarily mean a building was unsafe - that would depend on the amount of cladding used and where it is fitted.
 
bass_junkie83 said:
Although there is no outright ban on flammable material, there are restrictions and safeguards. To speculate where the process went wrong or simply stating that the cladding shouldn't have been used because it was banned is not helpful. But I guess you got to make the most out of a story while you can rather than wait for the outcomes of the enquiry.
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At the moment NO ONE wants to wait for proper checks and enquiries - everyone is demanding answers now so they can use a lack of answers as a stick. And a newspaper-selling tool.
 
There's a lot of anger swilling around over the EU exit, the terrorist attacks, several years of unnecessary "austerity", which is code for cutting the taxes of the rich while filleting the NHS, care budgets, police, defence systems and anything else that members of the Conservative Party consider frivolous.

Of course there comes a time when the chickens come home to roost and this fire has been the trigger.
 
Sejanus Aelianus said:
Of course there comes a time when the chickens come home to roost and this fire has been the trigger.
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Well now the ballons gone up, and the cat is out of the bag, and among the pigeons, we're going to have to fight fire with fire, and grasp the nettle and shut the door after the horse has bolted.
Otherwise we'll get caught with our trousers down and end up with egg on our face!
 
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ianp5a said:
Well now the ballons gone up, and the cat is out of the bag, and among the pigeons, we're going to have to fight fire with fire, and grasp the nettle and shut the door after the horse has bolted.
Otherwise we'll get caught with our trousers down and end up with egg on our face!
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Yup, this can of worms is a whole different ballpark.
 
I see a load of riots coming, tvs getting looted.
bus stops on fire, loads of bobbies getting overtime pay,
 
The government has ordered immediate testing of the Hotpoint fridge freezer which was involved.

Whirlpool, who owns Hotpoint, has urged anyone who thinks they may own one of the appliances of the model FF175BP or FF175BG to call 0800 316 3826.
 
Wasn't there something a good while back about some tumble dryers [ can't remember the make ] that had a do not use till checked by Maker notice ?

How many months was it that folk were complaining they had to wait for an inspection ?

I trust this will not happen in this case.
 
camerassassin said:
Wasn't there something a good while back about some tumble dryers [ can't remember the make ] that had a do not use till checked by Maker notice ?
How many months was it that folk were complaining they had to wait for an inspection ?
I trust this will not happen in this case.
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Whirlpool dryers, which Hotpoint is part of.
 
Tumble dryer business is still going on, been two or three years.

I had an affected model, took their offer of a new basic model for 59 quid delivered and the old one took away.
My original was an all singing and dancing one, few years old and never used most of the functions, so all ok with me.
 
tijuana taxi said:
I keep reading about a gas pipe in Grenfell Tower, thought tower blocks were made all electric after Ronan Point, definitely were in my neck of the woods.
The five twenty one storey blocks that overlooked the O's ground were pulled down ages ago, maybe about time they all were. Lots of my friends lived there and hated it, they housed people from nearby two up, two down houses with outside bogs that were demolished
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Gas was banned in towers constructed using Large Panel Systems built blocks of seven or more storeys. As the name suggests, Large Panel Systems are built using large (usually around 3m x 4m) precast concrete panels that are bolted together, rather like you might assemble an Ikea wardrobe.

It was the when some of those panels were blown away the explosion on the 18th floor of the 22 storey Ronan Point that the whole corner of the building was taken out. The ones above the 18th lost their support from below and then fell onto the floors below, causing a progressive collapse of the structure down to the ground.

Grenfell tower was constructed (in 1974 after regulations had been drawn up in 1971 after Ronan Point) with a reinforced concrete frame to which external panels were fixed. These panels do not perform any structural function, the strength of the building is in the frame. In the event of an explosion, a few panels in the immediate vicinity may have been blown off, but the structural integrity of the building would remain intact.

I studied architecture in the 80s and we had a lecture about Ronan Point by Sam Webb, an architect who investigated the disaster and has been campaigning for building safety ever since.

Sam led the investigation into the 2009 fire at Lakanal House in Camberwell in which 6 died, which identified poor specification and botched installation of the cladding system as the reason for the rapid spread of the fire there.

As a member of the Parliamentary All Party Fire & Rescue Group he's been arguing since then for urgent reform of Building Regs (such as mandatory retrofitting of sprinklers on tall buildings with such cladding)

Cameron's government committed to a review of legislation in 2010, but both his and then May's government, which have been obsessed with 'cutting red tape', failed to do anything further.

As much as anything else, this is why the issue is political.
 
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nickEnackEnoo said:
The government has ordered immediate testing of the Hotpoint fridge freezer which was involved.

Whirlpool, who owns Hotpoint, has urged anyone who thinks they may own one of the appliances of the model FF175BP or FF175BG to call 0800 316 3826.
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I wonder if this problem is bigger than just some fridge freezers. I think the increase in risk with these appliances comes from the use of a plastic back rather than a metal one. If, at the time, Hotpoint were using a plastic back in their fridge freezers, why wouldn't they use in the separate fridges and freezers?

Dave
 
There have been thousands of fires caused by "White goods" over the years, yes it may turn out that the initial fire was started by a faulty appliance, but, that is not the big issue here. Clearly the issue is why did it spread in such an uncontrollable manner.

There are many serious issues which need addressing here, let's hope that these are dealt with quickly, though it is a tragedy that it has taken this needless loss of life to trigger some action. This is not something that should be expected in a country like this.
 
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