Medium Format photography group - From "zero to hero!"

Woodsy

Woodsy

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Jonathan
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Hi All,

Following from the success of the Large Format thread of the same title, I thought it might be a good idea to start a thread along the same theme for MF shooters as well. I appreciate there are the "*insert brand name* medium format owners threads", but this is not intended to step on their toes. Instead, I had in mind that this could be a place for those who do shoot MF, of any brand/size/genre to come together with those that don't yet shoot MF and discuss issues and questions regarding absolutely anything MF; from the simplest of questions to the most specific. The LF thread along the same vein has been very useful thus far and I hope this can be too!

So I'll make a start!
 
I have a hankering to leave my D700 at home and hence finally go all film. I'll never not have digital around, mainly for when I'm doing something I deem so important that I simply cannot miss a photograph. But for 99% of the time, I'd like a MF camera to supplement my 5x4 camera, and I don't want to go the MF back on LF camera path (Because of wide lenses being as expensive as some MF camera systems - my current widest LF lens is 90mm - and MF backs for LF cameras are also rather expensive.) I already own a Mamiya RB67, but it's heavy and wont fit in my current D700+lens footprint. Here's what I'd like:

Small,
cheap,
robust,
light,
non-square format,
good optics,
good range of wide-ish lenses (I shoot solely landscapes)
meter built in,
not a rangefinder or TLR.

...I know, right? "Hahahahaha".

So yes, in all seriousness, I know I can't have it all, but surely there are some 645 cameras that fit nearly all of those? I appreciate 645 isn't hugely larger than 135, not compared with 67 and upwards, but it's at least a factor of 2 larger, right? Also, 16 frames to a roll is rather attractive - LF kills the wallet enough as it is!

Good people, what then are my 645 options? Further, what are peoples opinions on said options, given my comical list of requirements? I should clarify also, I have about £400 absolute max to spend, with a preferred ceiling of £350. I also intend to shoot only colour negative, probably Portra 160, for convertable to B&W and overall dynamic range reasons.
 
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I've been very impressed with the results from my Mamiya 645AFD, it's not within your price range, but the 645AF might be. The metering is very good and it can take both the new AF lenses and any old manual focus equivalent. But small and light it is not...
I'd be looking at something like a Mamiya 645 Pro with a metering prism but that might not fill all of your needs.

Though, with your list of requirements, good luck filling them all!
 
Fuji GS645, the 's' suffix comes with a 60mm lens (35mm equivalent on 35mm film) or the 'w' suffix comes with a 45mm lens (28mm equivalent) (there's also a no suffix version which is a folder with a 75mm lens). But then I've just read the bit about "not a rangefinder" so I'll stop typing.

Bloody good cameras with cracking lenses, mind :)
 
Woodsy said:
not a rangefinder or TLR.
Click to expand...

Does that mean "must be an SLR design" or can it be taken at face value and allow roll film view cameras to be a possible choice? Even though they'll fall down on the built in meter requirement (and probably weight).
 
Bronica ETR[S|Si] with a metering prism? Pentax 645[N|NII]?

I've no idea about these cameras but they're about the only ones I know of that fit your criteria other than the Mamiya Rob has already mentioned.
 
I want a Hassy 500cm but I know it's nothing more than GAS. It would probably end up the most expensive ornament on my desk..... But it would look great! ;)
 
Rob + Dean: Thanks for the suggestions chaps, will look into them!

Stephen: Though I am perfectly happy to stand corrected, my understanding about MF view cameras is that they are bulky, heavy and expensive? This kind of defeats the point for me. Also, yes, they don't have meters. It's fair to say I'm not looking for a MF view camera :).

Adam: Haha, yep. If I were loaded, I'd have one of them on display! :D
 
Strappy said:
Bronica ETR[S|Si] with a metering prism? Pentax 645[N|NII]?

I've no idea about these cameras but they're about the only ones I know of that fit your criteria other than the Mamiya Rob has already mentioned.
Click to expand...
The Pentax fits most of the criteria but I wouldn't describe it as small or light. As said above, Fuji could be the way to go, they did a few that might fit (again most of) the bill.

If wide angles are your thing then the 35mm 645 A lens is worth considering the Pentax for alone mind...it is amazing.

Obviously if you'd accept a rangefinder then Mamiya 7 would perhaps be your ideal camera, if money was no object either, they are not cheap by any stretch.
 
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Having owned a Bronica ETRSi (or whatever the plastic one is) I personally can't recommend it, it was light but it felt like it was about to fall apart on me at the merest provocation.
your results may differ.
 
Just to show the size of the 645AFD, the 645AF has the same body but different guts.

FD3429BA-633D-4CD9-BFDE-7B3BFFAA067B_zps1h0dyla1.jpg

5AC89DC5-D37D-4B3B-A457-E85C1AF14933_zpsc37uqdap.jpg


Will do a comparison with my 5D and lens when I'm back home.
 
I'd go for a Mamiya M645J along with the 35mm 3.5. Seriously good results and not really any larger than a DSLR. I preferred the WLF for comfort and handling but also used a metered Prism finder which gives you built in metering along with the view being the right way round :0)

Bronica S2A vs Mamiya M645J REview by Steve Lloyd, on Flickr

35mm 3.5 Lens with Acros 100;

A walk around Liverpool by Steve Lloyd, on Flickr

80mm 2.8 kit lens with Ektar 100;

A walk around Ewloe by Steve Lloyd, on Flickr

This is the camera I miss the most so will most likely end up picking up another one at some point. There is also the M645 1000s if you want a slightly faster max shutter speed and mirror lock up. M645J with 80mm 2.8 kit lens and WLF should be £150 max and budget another £150 for the 35mm 3.5 lens. Perfect setup and comfortable to shoot handheld all day.
 
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Woodsy said:
I have a hankering to leave my D700 at home and hence finally go all film. I'll never not have digital around, mainly for when I'm doing something I deem so important that I simply cannot miss a photograph. But for 99% of the time, I'd like a MF camera to supplement my 5x4 camera, and I don't want to go the MF back on LF camera path (Because of wide lenses being as expensive as some MF camera systems - my current widest LF lens is 90mm - and MF backs for LF cameras are also rather expensive.) I already own a Mamiya RB67, but it's heavy and wont fit in my current D700+lens footprint. Here's what I'd like:

Small,
cheap,
robust,
light,
non-square format,
good optics,
good range of wide-ish lenses (I shoot solely landscapes)
meter built in,
not a rangefinder or TLR.

...I know, right? "Hahahahaha".

So yes, in all seriousness, I know I can't have it all, but surely there are some 645 cameras that fit nearly all of those? I appreciate 645 isn't hugely larger than 135, not compared with 67 and upwards, but it's at least a factor of 2 larger, right? Also, 16 frames to a roll is rather attractive - LF kills the wallet enough as it is!

Good people, what then are my 645 options? Further, what are peoples opinions on said options, given my comical list of requirements? I should clarify also, I have about £400 absolute max to spend, with a preferred ceiling of £350. I also intend to shoot only colour negative, probably Portra 160, for convertable to B&W and overall dynamic range reasons.
Click to expand...

Personally, I think that 6x6cm cameras are actually the best 645 cameras, because 6x6cm cameras don't require rotation (so handling is easier); aren't really much different in size; and offer more flexibility with regard to your images afterwards when printing or scanning. Yes, you get a few more shots per roll with 645, but a number of 645 cameras only offer 15 exposures (e.g., Bronica ETR series, Fuji GA645, etc.), which isn't enough of an upgrade over 12 exposures for me to justify the loss in handling from 6x6cm.

For landscapes in medium format, I really like 6x6cm SLR cameras with leaf shutters and mirror lock up capabilities. Lots to like in terms of handling and results.
 
I agree with @robhooley167, the ETRSi left me cold too, it never felt right and I felt no joy in using it. At first I thought maybe it was the 645 format that missed the mark but like @stevelmx5 I really like the Mamiya 645/1000s, it feels solid, sits comfortably in the hand, the lens choice is good and it's affordable. Personally I'm not a fan of the prism finder, although I've got one, I know they give you metering but you've got a light meter already and with your LF experience you're used to images being the wrong way round.
 
If you're just using it for landscapes, then some of the benefit of an SLR is lost IMO...in many ways rangefinders are well suited to that purpose as the lenses can be designed to higher optical standards (especially wide angle designs), leaf shutters create fewer vibrations, they can be made smaller and lighter generally, and speed of action isn't so important. Have you looked at the Fuji 6x9 rangefinders that takes interchangeable lenses? They aren't small, but they aren't especially heavy, and you're getting the kind of negatives that nearly match up to your LF work. And you could get one with a set of lenses for a lot less than a Mamiya 7.
 
In my personal use I find that Rangefinders are pretty poor for landscapes as you have no feedback regarding filters in use. I've borrowed a Mamiya Super 23 to try out and whilst I'm looking forwards to seeing 6x9 results, I wouldn't like to use it as a landscape camera because I'd be guessing the filter placement for grads/polarisers.
 
Since I've never used a graduated filter, and haven't used a polariser for about 10 years (to only then to remove reflections) filter placement isn't an issue for me. What is is the dark red viewfinder when I use a red filter (or various other colours depending on the subject) and for that reason I can see the advantage of not using an SLR.
 
I should have added, for those who don't want to use filters that need specific placement like a grad or polariser, a bright rangefinder is excellent for focussing :0)
 
Small, check
cheap, check
robust, check
light, check
non-square format, check
not a rangefinder or TLR. check

good optics, ah!
good range of wide-ish lenses (I shoot solely landscapes) It has a yellow filter?
meter built in, No need - single stop exposure.

I saw the last three requirements, just as was going to recommend this:

9671935671_661c88b792.jpg
 
If you can compromise by not having a built-in meter then you will be able to save some weight by using the Mamiya or Bronica 645 systems with waist level finders; if you're mainly using LF now then you must be used to using an external meter
 
A 645 negative is 3.125 times the size of a 135 negative... that's quite a lot! I really did enjoy the Mamiya 645 I borrowed for a while. If you don't mind having no interchangeable back, the older ones are great cameras. No meter but that won't bother you.

The viewfinders like the Fujis are, I believe, quite a bit lighter. Then there's the Texas Leica... I'm sure that's going to be lighter than the SLR types, and you get a 6*9 negative!
 
ChrisR said:
A 645 negative is 3.125 times the size of a 135 negative... that's quite a lot!
Click to expand...

To be very pedantic, it's 2.7x bigger, not 3.125x. It's still enough of a difference though that I would take 6x4.5cm over 135 any day of the week.
 
Woodsy said:
Small,
cheap,
robust,
light,
non-square format,
good optics,
good range of wide-ish lenses (I shoot solely landscapes)
meter built in
Click to expand...

That's an excellent description of a 645 RF, its the fact you don't want one that cocks it up :/

.....its a limited choice if you chuck out RF's
 
skysh4rk said:
To be very pedantic, it's 2.7x bigger, not 3.125x. It's still enough of a difference though that I would take 6x4.5cm over 135 any day of the week.
Click to expand...

Since that came off my calculator, the difference must come from 645 not being 60*45 mm! (Which I believe is the case but had forgotten.) But yes, it's a lot, and the huge 6*9 is only twice that size.
 
ChrisR said:
Since that came off my calculator, the difference must come from 645 not being 60*45 mm! (Which I believe is the case but had forgotten.) But yes, it's a lot, and the huge 6*9 is only twice that size.
Click to expand...

Yeah, 645 is actually 56mm x 42mm.

I've thought about experimenting with 6x9 myself, as it is a big negative as non-large-format film goes, but it creates problems for me with regard to scanning and darkroom printing. I'm also not terribly fond of the 3:2 aspect ratio.
 
As mentioned by several others do not pass go buy a Mamiya 645 1000s it suits your budget and stated requirements.

It is getting to the point relatively speaking that they are going to start giv9ing out the lenses free with breakfast cereal note however the wide angles always go for a bit more. Teddington photographic have some of the lenses at good prices at the moment.

The Mamiya range finders might be better optically but they are well beyond your stated budget.
 
Many thanks for all the replies, they're much appreciate. So far, I have to say, I'm rather liking the look of the mamiya 645's; they certainly seem to tick all the boxes. Not looking to buy anything straight away, so will obviously entertain any other options :)

Thanks again all!
 
I forgot to add that I replaced my M645J with a 645Pro thinking that the swappable backs would be better but I actually found the Pro less engaging due to its 80's plastic and larger size overall hence why I'd go back to an M645J first.
 
Jonathan I use a Bronica ETRSi kit and have found it to be reliable and good in the hand,I believe from comments that the Mamiya 645 in it,s various models is very good as well.My only observations are when you come to adding on items. The Mamiya you can achieve a great set up for your budget even at the lower end, with of course the 80mm lens,but,when you come to want to add,say 60mm,50mm or 40mm to the kit then the Mamiya rockets into high values and the Bronica lenses still stay some what reasonable.

What can we draw from this,if you want a one lens basic kit then Mamiya,however,should you feel that the future holds the need to add more lens flexibility then I would recommend the Bronica ETRSi and I have the 40,50,75.105 and 150mm lenses, all of which perform very well and when stalking the net can be pick up for,at some times two thirds the price of Mamiya. To a certain extent the same applies with backs as well.

The choice of course is your,s,should you wish to trail a Bronica kit let me know,I would be delighted to arrange for you to have my kit for a trail period. (y)
 
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@Woodsy I have a Mamiya 645 with a WLF and a prism you can borrow, my w/a lens is on my other Mamiya at the moment but I can lend you a standard 80mm lens if you just want to try it out.

And just in case you want to go down the rangefinder route I've got a Fuji GS645S you can try as well.
 
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medwaygreen said:
Jonathan I use a Bronica ETRSi kit and have found it to be reliable and good in the hand,I believe from comments that the Mamiya 645 in it,s various models is very good as well.My only observations are when you come to adding on items. The Mamiya you can achieve a great set up for your budget even at the lower end, with of course the 80mm lens,but,when you come to want to add,say 60mm,50mm or 40mm to the kit then the Mamiya rockets into high values and the Bronica lenses still stay some what reasonable.

What can we draw from this,if you want a one lens basic kit then Mamiya,however,should you feel that the future holds the need to add more lens flexibility then I would recommend the Bronica ETRSi and I have the 40,50,75.105 and 150mm lenses, all of which perform very well and when stalking the net can be pick up for,at some times two thirds the price of Mamiya. To a certain extent the same applies with backs as well.

The choice of course is your,s,should you wish to trail a Bronica kit let me know,I would be delighted to arrange for you to have my kit for a trail period. (y)
Click to expand...
I have neither system but this looks like good advice to me. With the Pentax 645N that I have, the lenses are also suitable for the 645D and the latest 645Z digital cameras and that keeps the prices pretty high for the more desirable ones, and especially the AF versions.

However as a landscape camera that is light enough to hang across your back on a strap when you're out in the hills, without even needing to bring a camera rucksack, I think the Fuji 6x9 rangefinder (I know, I know;)), especially the wider lens version (GSW690) could be perfect. They're not that cheap though.
 
Francesco speaks much truth. The Fuji's are unbelievable good, the lenses are superb, the camera is light but very robust and those 6x9 negs are little bits of art. My problem with both of the ones I owned was me, I just didn't engage with them and found them both too much like using a digital. This is no reflection on the cameras just on my tastes.

14281293817_2869a9d33e_b.jpg
 
Hi Woodsy.

I know you said you're not in a position to buy yet but I saw this advert on Gumtree last night so sent a message to the seller (I really shouldn't be buying more cameras!);

http://www.gumtree.com/p/non-digital-cameras/camera-bundle-including-medium-format-/1105477328

They've replied to say that they'd split the Mamiya to sell on its' own but wouldn't take less than £100 for it. I take that as, they'll accept £100 for it (with some haggling for postage cost I'm sure) but it could be a good option. At that price even if you find you don't like the handling etc you won't lose out. If you're interested, I can reply to the seller to let them know you're interested so they don't try and hike the price up :0)

Cheers
Steve
 
So... Much... Choice.... Brain... Struggling...

:D

Firstly, thank you for all the offers of kit loans, it's mighty kind of you!

Thanks also for the link Steve, that is very cheap indeed. Something to consider for sure.

I need to give this thread another full read through and consider all the options, which I'll do tonight when I've stopped writing this t̶h̶e̶s̶i̶s̶ cr4p for the day.

Thanks again all, much appreciated :)
 
Woodsy said:
which I'll do tonight when I've stopped writing this t̶h̶e̶s̶i̶s̶ cr4p for the day
Click to expand...
Haven't you finished that yet! When are you going to finish school and get a proper job? :exit:
 
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