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soccersnapper said:
so no more questions then?

I expect to see this weeks Non-League Paper filled with nothing but excellence and perhaps some of you could take the time to write to Her Majesty suggesting that I get an OBE next year for my services to photography

thanQ x
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Plenty more questions but wont be asking them on here
 
QUESTION I dont know if you agree so this will be my question.. I believe I have the eye.. I also believe it's not something that can be taught... like snooker.. I know the rules of the game.. i still never won a match.. Do you believe it can be taught? that you can teach someone to ...see a picture?

yes it can be taught - you can see pictures everywhere, framed by everyday things.

I fondly remember getting punched in the ribs by a girl I was seeing for supposedly staring at a girl in a blue dress at the end of the bar. She did not believe that I was looking out of the window that was framing a gorgeous deep blue sky with a lamp post lighting up a black and white building. It was so perfectly framed. Sadly we did not last long together!

The only thing I really came out with from college was an understanding of composition.. lots of study of old paintings to see how the masters constructed their paintings. Very boring but vitally important to get to grips with.

I can see you at the Tate Kippax!!
 
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Then I would respectfully disagree (in the nicest way) because i dont think it can be taught... rules of third and all that can be taught... but what i call seeing a picture in a picture.. is somehting you have or havent got.. I dont believe you can teach people to have a feel for something..

But its about the only thing we disagree on :)
 
Rovers_Andy said:
Plenty more questions but wont be asking them on here
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Why not.. You wanted talk sport as much as the rest of us mate... share.. open up :)
 
Question - Can you post 3 pics taken wth a 50mm lens which illustrate your point regarding photographing in your own style and not necessarily capturing the action on the pitch?
 
Can you use a slower lens for womens football?
 
James seems to have had a bit of meltdown, but he'll be back

Mr Coyle, please refrain from poking a wasps nest

Kipax - you and I didnt get off to the best start, but your contributions to the forumhave been sensible, knowledgable and balanced. Thank you.

Soccersnapper, I hope you will reconsider and occasional offer up some thoughts for the guys who want a career in sports photography.
 
soccersnapper said:
QUESTION
Do you believe it can be taught? that you can teach someone to ...see a picture?

yes it can be taught - you can see pictures everywhere, framed by everyday things.
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One of the few points I dissagree with. Everybody sees things differently and this is something I believe you cannot teach.You can tell them what to look for but if they dont "see it" they cant take it.
 
soccersnapper said:
Strangely you comment on asking who hell I think I am in I sense a mocking fashion, then bizarrely treat me with three complements.

You have made me smile. I like smiling. Have a cup of tea.

Is that 2 sugars sir?
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2 sugars it is, thanks.

My reason for that post is you want to vent and ask for no response. This is a forum, an open debate. It's a two way street and you have to judge the oncoming traffic.

i complimented you with good reason, it's the truth, i live by it, I live for it.

Thanks for the visit, come back soon, leave your troubles at the door, it's always open.

Bon voyage!

:clap::clap::clap:
 
OK, so I have re-read your initial post a few times now and I have pulled out a couple more questions from it.

1.
but there were a couple of Indians with 85mm lenses, but holding their cameras properly
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Can you describe how to hold a camera properly?

2.
some have turned up at major sporting events and have caused so much havoc, it has resulting in people being paid to be there not being able to work properly.
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What key pieces of etiquette and or cardinals sins that you can advise us to do or not to do at matches which professional photographers attend.

I'm sorry if these sound stupid, but I'd honestly like to know.

Thanks again.
 
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Do you think the importance of "the moment' overshadows high quality photography? I mean, will the media publish a bad picture of a goal rather than an excellent picture of something that happened earlier / later?
 
Removed, I'll let the op do the answering, didn't realise which thread I was in!
 
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hjwatso1 said:
OK, so I have re-read your initial post a few times now and I have pulled out a couple more questions from it.

1.
Can you describe how to hold a camera properly?

2.
What key pieces of etiquette and or cardinals sins that you can advise us to do or not to do at matches which professional photographers attend.

I'm sorry if these sound stupid, but I'd honestly like to know.

Thanks again.
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No question is stupid - except the one you don't ask. :)

In soccersnappers absence I'll answer this - I'm sure his advice would be pretty much the same, I'm sure he'll tell me if he disagrees.

Assuning you're using a DSLR and a lens around the size of a 50mm lens, your left hand should be cupped underneath the lens with the heel of your hand under the camera base plate. You don't need the right hand at all as yet - the camera is well supported. With manual focus lenses and an aperture ring on the lens, you can also focus and alter the aperture settings without changing the position of that left hand at all - in fact it's pretty much second nature to old school film camera users. Even nowadays with AF lenses though, and aperture settings being made elsewhere it's by far the best way to place that left hand for complete camera support.

When you lift the camera up to your face - don't drop your head to meet it -look straight ahead and lift the camera straight up to your eye. You'll find your elbows will now rest nicely for support on the high part of your chest. Dropping your head results in your elbows not resting on that high part of your chest, but lower around the rib area where there's less support and your elbows are apt to slide down. Dropping your head also results in you not looking properly through the viewfinder and you may find you can't see all of the viewfinder area or part of the exposure information.

You should be standing comfortably with feet shoulder width apart, don't hold your breath - but rather take a deep breath and exhale slowly as you squeeze the shutter - rather like a marksman would.

When you rotate the camera to portrait orientation - rotate it anti-clockwise so that the shutter button is at the top. You left elbow doesn't move - your left hand is still completely supporting the camera, but your right hand is playing little or no part in camera support at all and only needs to really be involved in pressing that shutter. If you rotate the camera clockwise with the shutter button at the bottom, your right hand now assumes the dual role of supporting the camera and pressing the shutter button -putting undue stress exactly where it isn't needed.

If you start off from the position I described and rotate the camera clockwise you can actually tell at once on how many levels it really doesn't work. :D

That's it basically - as lenses get longer, you'll need to slide your left hand further along the lens - the heel of your left hand wont be under the camera base plate, but ideally at a point where you can still support the lens and camera with one hand, and you tend to find this point quite naturally.
 
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This is an interesting discussion. Much of SoccerSnappers advice seems to be the 'forgotten obvious' to those who come from a 'traditional' background. My main sport is cycling but I'd shoot anything when I was at Uni in the late '80s. Hoping for good images when you have 1 roll of film per half, and a manual focus lens. You learn to look carefully for the shots, learn from what you see published and nearly take a load of pics but not quite.

Question: What exercises would be good for a budding sports photographer to engage in? My thinking is that the machine gun approach means too little thought and too much mediocrity. A manual focus prime lens, manual exposure and you can only shoot n roll equivalents per game? Someone elsewhere suggested just shooting on a 50mm 1.4 lens.

Many thanks for the insight - I'm terrible at turning pictures into profit now, though it was much easier in the days of film (funded my social life at Uni through sports and theatre print sales).
 
Five pages of really interesting comments, insight, and tips now complete (and some of it not for the feint hearted may I add) and it only confirms my belief that forums can be quite brilliant or a right royal pain. It's a shame Soccersnapper feels the need to leave after the ban but if that's his will then so be it. I actually feel there are some things that can be learned here on both sides.
1. Maybe the forum owner and mods should look at a section where there are no holds barred critique provided by editors and pro photographers This section could be on an opt in basis only so that no one can stray there accidentally.
2. SS, Whilst I understand that you are only following a lifetime of experience and learning in your chosen field, I feel you may have missed some of the finer points of joining an internet forum where etiquette and conversation is concerned. Regardless of which well run forum you join, one just can't go round calling people names even if it is proper grammar. It may be acceptable face to face with photographers in the work place but it can't and should not be acceptable on an internet forum. I hope you can come to understand that.

This is the first time I have read any of your posts and I have to say it has been most enjoyable reading. The insight given by yourself into sports photography has been informative and interesting. My sincere wish is that you stick around even though I have no ambition to photograph sports of any kind.
I will need to check back, but there may be something that I might wish to contact you about regarding and earlier comment made by you. I would prefer to do this by PM though if that's ok.

Anyhow, that said, I suppose I should ask a question.:) So... In a big derby match such as a Celtic v Rangers game (well I am Scottish:D) where anything can and usually does happen, which end of the ground will you choose to go to and are you allowed to change ends during the match. And how do you approach getting photographs of incidents happening at the other end. Does the editor normally send more than one photographer to cover this or will they just buy photos from freelance in this instance?
 
Doog said:
1. Maybe the forum owner and mods should look at a section where there are no holds barred critique provided by editors and pro photographers This section could be on an opt in basis only so that no one can stray there accidentally.
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we do have no holds barred critique, its the critique tag. If you post a photo with that, you should expect honest and critical review. The problem wasnt honesty, it was lack of manners. He called someone an idiot, twice, and not in a friendly way. we dont have a lot of rules here, being courteous to each other isnt a hard thing to do, most of us were brought up to hold doors open and say please and thank you, cant see that being polite on the internet is any different. There are several ways to tell someone they are an idiot without actually calling them one.
 
matty said:
we do have no holds barred critique, its the critique tag. If you post a photo with that, you should expect honest and critical review. The problem wasnt honesty, it was lack of manners. He called someone an idiot, twice, and not in a friendly way. we dont have a lot of rules here, being courteous to each other isnt a hard thing to do, most of us were brought up to hold doors open and say please and thank you, cant see that being polite on the internet is any different. There are several ways to tell someone they are an idiot without actually calling them one.
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That's true I suppose. I didn't see the post in question. I just feel in would be a shame to loose someone with such experience and looking for a way that might accommodate the very harshest of critique where being told your picture is absolute crap might bring a lesser man to tears.
 
It's a double edged sword. Yes it would be nice to keep the pro's in all aspects of photography, but on the other hand you don't want the place turning into one great slanging match.
 
Oh and my take on can you teach someone to see a picture.

I think you can assist and give people pointers, but there are people who have that 'gift'. I think I do all right with images, understand what I'm looking for, know 'the rules', but then my youngest just takes excellent shots. Not always technically perfect but the composition is just great.
 
Byker28i said:
Oh and my take on can you teach someone to see a picture.

I think you can assist and give people pointers, but there are people who have that 'gift'. I think I do all right with images, understand what I'm looking for, know 'the rules', but then my youngest just takes excellent shots. Not always technically perfect but the composition is just great.
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Agree, i think i have an eye for a shot but i base that on 50 years of playing, watching and understanding the sport i shoot, however theres no way i have a "gift" and to be honest i dont see many sports photographers who do have this so called gift, i think its something youre born with and not something which can be taught
 
It's interesting that someone who 'likes to question and challenge' believes you can teach composition and how to take a photograph.

What happened to challenging convention and breaking new ground?

You can't teach someone how to have 'an eye', they either have it or they don't. To teach them is to shape them to conform to the perceived 'correct' way to shoot something, ergo refuse to challenge or question convention.

Ironic really.
 
You can certainly teach the fundamentals of composition and develop a sense for what constitutes a good image, but that creative 'eye' for want of a better description is something that you either have or haven't got.

David Bailey just saw things differently to everyone else from the moment he first picked up a camera, and whether you were a fan of his work or not, it was original and enough people liked it to make him a wealthy cookie.

Creativity and originality comes from a finger being laid on your brow at birth - no finger- no great gift. You can have talent, but it doesn't come close to the real deal. I long ago reconciled myself to the fact that whatever it is I don't got it.
 
I think you can teach composition and such like. Most everyone can look but you have to practice seeing.

But not everyone can learn. I had the benefit of a much older photographer who, when I was 10/11/12 or thereabouts would take the time to go through pictures from my latest roll of film and pull them apart (in a nice way), suggesting crops and compositions. Pointing out errors (lamp posts out of peoples heads for a very basic idea) and potential solutions (changing point of view)

After a while you learn to not just look but also to see - develop the eye - and learn to reflectively critique images.

What am I looking at? Why am I looking at that? Where does my eye go? What did I want to say? Does the image say that? Does it 'sit' well? What distracts? What would I change? How do I do it better next time? How would I use this picture?

There are rules and guidelines - you need to learn how to play a regular rhythm before you can swing. And those rules/guidelines are a good starting point. Rule of thirds, negative space, separation with light, colour, focus. Context or isolation?

A good artist turns out great work because they try things, they copy others and then push things further. I like looking at great photos and working out 1) how they were taken, and 2) how the photographer came up with that idea for a shot.
 
CT said:
You can certainly teach the fundamentals of composition and develop a sense for what constitutes a good image, but that creative 'eye' for want of a better description is something that you either have or haven't got.

David Bailey just saw things differently to everyone else from the moment he first picked up a camera, and whether you were a fan of his work or not, it was original and enough people liked it to make him a wealthy cookie.

Creativity and originality comes from a finger being laid on your brow at birth - no finger- no great gift. You can have talent, but it doesn't come close to the real deal. I long ago reconciled myself to the fact that whatever it is I don't got it.
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what he said ^^^ :)

sadly, it appears that some folk think that making a living from something automatically gives them the right to look down on people aspiring to do the same thing. Some of the OP's comments are a little insulting to some, and his comments about forums are insulting to some of us who run them..

that said, those that give up their time and knowledge freely and without complaint are always ALWAYS welcome, and those who give honest, open feedback WITHOUT name calling and belittling are always welcome to. It doesnt have to be a Them and Us scenario.
 
Welll if soccersnapper has now left the building it's a shame. I liked his joined up style of writing and he could have contributed a lot - just needed a bit of gentle house training is all. :D
 
ianmarsh said:
Ditto - bloomin' annoying when a ten year old kicks my butt whenever he can be bothered to use his camera.
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He's still quoting he beat me in a comp on here!

Still - two photo's in the Daily telegraph on Tuesday, and they'll be more this week in trade magazines means I can quiet him down for a bit. ;)
 
CT said:
Welll if soccersnapper has now left the building it's a shame. I liked his joined up style of writing and he could have contributed a lot - just needed a bit of gentle house training is all. :D
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that is the general feeling CT, I dont think he liked being asked to moderate his language
 
matty said:
that is the general feeling CT, I dont think he liked being asked to moderate his language
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Well it's a shame- would he really talk to people like that in the bar at his local - I doubt it, so I don't see why it should be any different here.
 
Give him a chance to come back and respond. There were some fairly big games last night and he might be busy actually earning some hard cash! :)

Going back to a point that SS brought up with regard to learning composition, framing and shot construction, albeit slightly tongue in cheek, I think that there is an awful lot of mileage in the idea of spending time in an art gallery.

If you take time to study how a picture was composed, and just as importantly how the artist used light coming into and going out of the frame, there is lot that can be learned and applied to photography. It won't replace an innate talent, but it can fine tune your instincts and focus your thoughts as to where the final image should end up.

It's easy to question why you would do this with art and not other photographs, to which the answer is simple. If you study a different medium from the one that you are used to, you can separate the compositional skills from the technique used more easily; ie you are looking at the building blocks of the picture and not the method used to create it.

That may all sound rather poncy, but I've found that it's helped me a lot.
 
DemiLion said:
Going back to a point that SS brought up with regard to learning composition, framing and shot construction, albeit slightly tongue in cheek, I think that there is an awful lot of mileage in the idea of spending time in an art gallery.

If you take time to study how a picture was composed, and just as importantly how the artist used light coming into and going out of the frame, there is lot that can be learned and applied to photography. It won't replace an innate talent, but it can fine tune your instincts and focus your thoughts as to where the final image should end up.
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The strobist website has an occasional series where David Hobby "interviews" long dead masters about how they lit their paintings with off-camera strobes. Funny and informative.
 
cornishboy said:
Question - Can you post 3 pics taken wth a 50mm lens which illustrate your point regarding photographing in your own style and not necessarily capturing the action on the pitch?
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Not a 50mm, and not my photos [Lawrence Griffiths of Getty] Click 1
Second one

I have a couple of questions, but I need to think how to word them. Its been insightful reading some of the questions and answers though.
 
DemiLion said:
That may all sound rather poncy, but I've found that it's helped me a lot.
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Nobodies denying that people can be taught how to take a picture... I beleive we are all learning all the time even the OP would agree wiht that.

But sometimes theres a pictures that doesn't fit all the rules.. how do you get that if your photogrpahing monkey style, copycat, by the rules?
 
That's a good question..

Do you learn the rules so that you know what you are breaking, or just freestyle from the start. I haven't seen anyone answer that definitively yet.
 
DemiLion said:
That's a good question..

Do you learn the rules so that you know what you are breaking, or just freestyle from the start. I haven't seen anyone answer that definitively yet.
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I will

Yes you have to learn the rules before breaking them, unless of course the picture just works :shrug:

But generally you would learn the rules first (y)
 
KIPAX said:
Nobodies denying that people can be taught how to take a picture... I beleive we are all learning all the time even the OP would agree wiht that.

But sometimes theres a pictures that doesn't fit all the rules.. how do you get that if your photogrpahing monkey style, copycat, by the rules?
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I totally agree Tony!, (ya know there's a but comming don't you;))!, But!, I studied photography at collage & worked in a agency darkroom working my way up blah, blah!., I learned the rule of thirds etc I do know what constitutes a "good photo", however, I'm now it seems working for an industry that's not interested in my artistic ability.They want goal/celebration pics or superstars in deep doo doo!.
I did get a few B&W arty sports pics published many moons ago in the Indipendant who at least then still used artistic images (do they still?). So to be honest in this modern media circus of an industry it does as you say become a copycat agenda for most sports shot for the papers!. I have a numerous images I have shot at games for personal pleasure which I wouldn't send in for publication purley because I know it's not what the want! & sadley not what most people want to see either! (I think they would be judged on what is viewed in the media). Kind regards Graham
 
Hi. I was recommended Pictures on a Page by Harold Evans, a huge book filled with all sorts of info that illustrates 'what makes a good picture' - for the press.
 
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