Nikon mirrorless definitely on the way

[addicknchips]

The excitement has been about the mount enabling the use of fast lenses as if this hasn't been possible before. I haven't seen anyone crowing about Nikon being the first or only to offer a f0.95 AF lens so well spotted, you may have something there and this could be a USP worth shouting about.

Anyway, Googling suggests that people are stepping away from saying this will be a f0.95 and now thinking it'll be a 58mm f1.2... even so I can't see this being compact or cheap, I think it being larger and on the expensive side are better bets I have one old MF Minolta 50mm f1.2 and a modern MF Voigtlander 40mm f1.2. I'd describe the Minolta as funky at wide apertures and average for an old 50mm when stopped down and it'd describe the Voigtlander as being a good modern lens with performance I'd expect at f1.2 and good to excellent when stopped down. Neither of these are AF and the one f0.95 I've owned, a Voigtlander 25mm was manual too, dreamy at f0.95 and excellent stopped down a bit.

Thinking about it I do think that an AF 58mm f1.2 is maybe more sensible and more likely than a f0.95, maybe

if they release f0.95 with af i think the excitement will be warranted. autofocus is the key thing here i think.

going by the teaser vids it doesn't look like they are trying to make a super compact camera so there will be less issues mounting larger glass than you would get with putting it an a7 for example. still - i think the glass will be smaller than sigmas e mount stuff.

 

[woof woof]

I know

I often regret selling that Voigtlander 25mm f0.95 as it was the best lens I've used on MFT and very possibly vying for the title of the best lens I've ever used on any camera along with the Sony 55mm f1.8. My point being that an f0.95 lens can offer a very wide aperture and be excellent stopped down a bit rather than lagging behind the best even when stopped down as some wide aperture lenses have maybe done in the past.

 

[woof woof]

if they release f0.95 with af i think the excitement will be warranted. autofocus is the key thing here i think.

going by the teaser vids it doesn't look like they are trying to make a super compact camera so there will be less issues mounting larger glass than you would get with putting it an a7 for example. still - i think the glass will be smaller than sigmas e mount stuff.

I think it'll be exciting and a halo product but at a cost. The cost may well be justifiable as it'll be the only CSC with an AF 58mm f0.95/f1.2 but if they make it a nice modern lens the cost will surely make it a niche product and maybe heading towards the luxury thing to have market rather than the I really do need this market.

I may be a deluded amateur only interested in taking snaps on days out and holidays but I do think that for many even the advantage offered when going from f1.8 to f1.4 is maybe debateable with the f1.4 being more nice than strictly necessary and any advantage offered by a f1.2 lens being highly questionable let alone f0.95.

 

[nandbytes]

who is already doing f0.95 with af?

canon EF 50mm f/1 L.

 

[addicknchips]

I think it'll be exciting and a halo product but at a cost. The cost may well be justifiable as it'll be the only CSC with an AF 58mm f0.95/f1.2 but if they make it a nice modern lens the cost will surely make it a niche product and maybe heading towards the luxury thing to have market rather than the I really do need this market.

I may be a deluded amateur only interested in taking snaps on days out and holidays but I do think that for many even the advantage offered when going from f1.8 to f1.4 is maybe debateable with the f1.4 being more nice than strictly necessary and any advantage offered by a f1.2 lens being highly questionable let alone f0.95.

yeah i think cost, size, weight, performance, will all be a factor in whether it will be niche or not. Character will also be key. the canon 85mm 1.2 for example isn't everyones cup of tea for multiple reasons - but it has a distinctive look to it that makes it stand out. some love that and some don't.

 

[woof woof]

I've always been more interested in the look than technical performance hence the multiple 35 and 50mm lenses I own that are all slightly different from f1.x to f4 or so.

It'll be interesting to read what reviewers and people on forums say if Nikon go for a look rather than aiming for the sort of top end technical performance we see from the newer larger wide aperture primes. Whatever they do I can see it selling well even if only at good niche numbers.

 

[gad-westy]

I've always been more interested in the look than technical performance hence the multiple 35 and 50mm lenses I own that are all slightly different from f1.x to f4 or so.

It'll be interesting to read what reviewers and people on forums say if Nikon go for a look rather than aiming for the sort of top end technical performance we see from the newer larger wide aperture primes. Whatever they do I can see it selling well even if only at good niche numbers.

It's certainly what they did with the 58mm. Won't win any DXO awards but has a lovely look to images IMO. Can't afford one though!

 

[woof woof]

It's certainly what they did with the 58mm. Won't win any DXO awards but has a lovely look to images IMO. Can't afford one though!

I was thinking of that lens as I typed but I couldn't remember what it was, 50 / 58.

 

[JJ!]

The price will be a big factor here. If it is too high Sony will just continue to be more attractive to people switching to mirrorless.

I really hope it’s affordable and comfortable!

 

[Raymond Lin]

canon EF 50mm f/1 L.

To be honest that lens was too expensive, too difficult and full of flaws (or now call character, funny how age make flaws into character, if it’s crap then, by modern standard it’s even more crap now...anyway I digress) to use so why they replaced it with the 50/1.2.

With face defect and eye af the difficult of nailing focus should be much easier and taking the hard work away.

 

[snerkler]

The price will be a big factor here. If it is too high Sony will just continue to be more attractive to people switching to mirrorless.

I really hope it’s affordable and comfortable!

I don’t think so tbh, a slightly more expensive body vs thousands to swap system? If the Nikon is anywhere near the ballpark I’d expect the majority of Nikon users to stick with Nikon.

 

[Dave Semmens]

I don’t think so tbh, a slightly more expensive body vs thousands to swap system? If the Nikon is anywhere near the ballpark I’d expect the majority of Nikon users to stick with Nikon.

May be different for Canon users though as the adaptors are much better for Canon lenses to Sony.
The fact that the Nikon adaptors are poor may reduce Nikon's losses in the long run.

 

[SsSsSsSsSnake]

I often regret selling that Voigtlander 25mm f0.95 as it was the best lens I've used on MFT and very possibly vying for the title of the best lens I've ever used on any camera along with the Sony 55mm f1.8. My point being that an f0.95 lens can offer a very wide aperture and be excellent stopped down a bit rather than lagging behind the best even when stopped down as some wide aperture lenses have maybe done in the past.

If you thought it was that gud why sell it?

 

[woof woof]

If you thought it was that gud why sell it?

Because it was one of the reasons I got more into manual and particularly old manual lenses and I when that happened I found I wasn't using it so much. Actually these days I only use one manual lens on MFT, my 50mm f2.8 macro, all the others get used on my A7 where they make a lot more sense as the retain their original FoV.

I'm sure you've sold stuff and regretted it? Maybe more than once?

 

[JJ!]

People in the Sony thread wanted to post that Sony have taken the number 1 mirrorless spot in the US. Not sure why that is relevant but hey, I have done the job for them!

Please note I may still buy a Sony, I may buy another Nikon and also that both Olympus and Canon are ahead of Sony in overall worldwide mirrorless sales according to some article I read which may be wrong lol.

 

[snerkler]

People in the Sony thread wanted to post that Sony have taken the number 1 mirrorless spot in the US. Not sure why that is relevant but hey, I have done the job for them!

Please note I may still buy a Sony, I may buy another Nikon and also that both Olympus and Canon are ahead of Sony in overall worldwide mirrorless sales according to some article I read which may be wrong lol.

I thought it was the number one spot in FF cameras not mirrorless? Either way it's credit to Sony for pushing innovation forward. Some say that Canikon aren't too late to the party as folk will buy into Canikon regardless, and whilst this is probably true, the fact that Sony have taken as big a share of the market as they have suggests to me that Canikon are late to the party. Maybe not "too" late, but probably later than they should have been.

You'd have thought Nikon would have learnt from years gone by when they lost the lion's share of the market to Canon for being slow to develop a decent AF system, but I guess old habits die hard

 

[JJ!]

I thought it was the number one spot in FF cameras not mirrorless? Either way it's credit to Sony for pushing innovation forward. Some say that Canikon aren't too late to the party as folk will buy into Canikon regardless, and whilst this is probably true, the fact that Sony have taken as big a share of the market as they have suggests to me that Canikon are late to the party. Maybe not "too" late, but probably later than they should have been.

You'd have thought Nikon would have learnt from years gone by when they lost the lion's share of the market to Canon for being slow to develop a decent AF system, but I guess old habits die hard

That’s Nikon for you!!!

I’m on the fence on this one will wait for all these stupid teaser videos to stop and see the actual final thing.

Who else does these stupid build ups?!

 

[twist]

I thought it was the number one spot in FF cameras not mirrorless? Either way it's credit to Sony for pushing innovation forward. Some say that Canikon aren't too late to the party as folk will buy into Canikon regardless, and whilst this is probably true, the fact that Sony have taken as big a share of the market as they have suggests to me that Canikon are late to the party. Maybe not "too" late, but probably later than they should have been.

You'd have thought Nikon would have learnt from years gone by when they lost the lion's share of the market to Canon for being slow to develop a decent AF system, but I guess old habits die hard

Thats right, FF, it shows an interesting shift or blip (6 months) as its the first time (I think) that FF mirrorless has outsold conventional FF DSLR. Its not about what brand it is.

 

[JJ!]

Thats right, FF, it shows an interesting shift or blip (6 months) as its the first time (I think) that FF mirrorless has outsold conventional FF DSLR. Its not about what brand it is.

I’m guessing unlike Nikon, Canon will just release theirs without any of these stupid teaser videos and no matter how good or bad it is the Canon masses will buy it anyway!

 

[twist]

I’m guessing unlike Nikon, Canon will just release theirs without any of these stupid teaser videos and no matter how good or bad it is the Canon masses will buy it anyway!

Ive not really seen Canon do these stupid long term teasers. Few rumours then its usually out. Canon make good cameras but people will also buy into the brand as its very strong.

 

[jerry12953]

I’m guessing unlike Nikon, Canon will just release theirs without any of these stupid teaser videos and no matter how good or bad it is the Canon masses will buy it anyway!

And for very good reason. They've got a whole bag full of Canon lenses already........

 

[jonneymendoza]

And for very good reason. They've got a whole bag full of Canon lenses already........

What bag of mirrorless ff lenses do they have?

 

[snerkler]

And for very good reason. They've got a whole bag full of Canon lenses already........

Assuming current lenses are fully compatible, which the same can be said about Nikon.

 

[snerkler]

That’s Nikon for you!!!

I’m on the fence on this one will wait for all these stupid teaser videos to stop and see the actual final thing.

Who else does these stupid build ups?!

The teasers do my head in tbh, BUT they do seem to work unfortunately. How many people are talking about this new camera, how many people have seen the pictures and are discussing the design, what the mount's going to bring etc etc? Whilst there are some like myself that find them irritating (one's not, but the constant drip feed is) I don't think that anyone can deny that it's building and hype and discussion, and therefore working?

 

[woof woof]

Wasn't it once true that most people buying an interchangeable lens camera just bought the camera and kit lens? Or the two lens kit? I think I read that somewhere. If that was once the case I wonder if it still is? I wonder what percentage of ILC buyers buy multiple lenses and how that changes through the various makes and models.

It could be that any new Canikon's sells really well... as a camera and kit lens, regardless of what could well be the relatively small proportion of people who have multiple DSLR lenses and want to use them on a new mirrorless camera.

 

[jonneymendoza]

Assuming current lenses are fully compatible, which the same can be said about Nikon.

Which was my point hehe

 

[snerkler]

Wasn't it once true that most people buying an interchangeable lens camera just bought the camera and kit lens? Or the two lens kit? I think I read that somewhere. If that was once the case I wonder if it still is? I wonder what percentage of ILC buyers buy multiple lenses and how that changes through the various makes and models.

It could be that any new Canikon's sells really well... as a camera and kit lens, regardless of what could well be the relatively small proportion of people who have multiple DSLR lenses and want to use them on a new mirrorless camera.

I would say it's still the case. Forums like this are skewed as most (if not all) are enthusiasts, but the consumer market is still larger than the enthusiast market and as such you will find people still buy the DSLR with kit zoom(s). I always find it fascinating when I speak to Joe Public how many have the belief that Canon are the best despite knowing nothing about photography. Why this is I don't know, I can only assume it's because that's the camera that they see the most of, especially watching sports and events on the TV. I'm not for one second suggesting they're wrong (although clearly they are as Nikon's better ) but I find it fascinating that this is the general perception.

 

[JJ!]

The teasers do my head in tbh, BUT they do seem to work unfortunately. How many people are talking about this new camera, how many people have seen the pictures and are discussing the design, what the mount's going to bring etc etc? Whilst there are some like myself that find them irritating (one's not, but the constant drip feed is) I don't think that anyone can deny that it's building and hype and discussion, and therefore working?

I’m going to head to some sort of mirrorless, just not sure what!!!

 

[woof woof]

I always find it fascinating when I speak to Joe Public how many have the belief that Canon are the best despite knowing nothing about photography. Why this is I don't know, I can only assume it's because that's the camera that they see the most of, especially watching sports and events on the TV. I'm not for one second suggesting they're wrong (although clearly they are as Nikon's better ) but I find it fascinating that this is the general perception.

Maybe also to do with adverts and what the sales assistant pushes. Years ago I went into Jessops to ask about the latest Panasonic and the assistant tried to sell me a Canon DSLR. Maybe that happens a lot.

 

[redhed17]

I would say it's still the case. Forums like this are skewed as most (if not all) are enthusiasts, but the consumer market is still larger than the enthusiast market and as such you will find people still buy the DSLR with kit zoom(s). I always find it fascinating when I speak to Joe Public how many have the belief that Canon are the best despite knowing nothing about photography. Why this is I don't know, I can only assume it's because that's the camera that they see the most of, especially watching sports and events on the TV. I'm not for one second suggesting they're wrong (although clearly they are as Nikon's better ) but I find it fascinating that this is the general perception.

Marketing, and changing public perception is very hard to do. About 10+ years ago I was working in John Lewis, and the iPod was all the rage, but it wasn't the best music player available. Because of the popularity of the iPod, they had sold out. You would tell people, we are sold out, but this (can't remember what it was) is better anyway! No, they want an iPod. Now you don't get commission in JL, and you got no instructions to sell one thing over another, you were employed to know what you were talking about, so I was just trying to help someone get a music player in the run up to Christmas. But no, iPod or nothing.

As for multiple lenses when going mirrorless, I would think on average they would sell more than the one or two lenses sold with most DSLRs because a new system may have to totally replace a DSLR and multiple lenses. Apart from Sony mirrorless, I'm not sure you can use lenses from Canon, Nikon on other mirrorless brands reliably, if at all, via an adapter. So if you go Fuji, Panasonic, Olympus etc, you are most likely replacing all previous lenses (if possible) when changing systems, and that may push the average up for 2+ lenses. Add to that that for Fuji, Panasonic, Olympus especially, the size / weight reductions of the system is also in the lenses, whereas you may have been able to comfortably carry a camera and a lens or two previously, you may now be able to carry a camera and 3-4 lenses for a similar weight and size taken up in a bag, so if size and weight was what was holding you back from buying more lenses, that may have been eliminated wit a change in system. Again, possibly adding to an increase in the multiple lens ownership numbers. And you would think a great incentive to get into a market when you will probably be selling more lenses with a new system.

I think I read that there is rumour of the Nikon mirrorless cameras only being available with a kit lens, at least initially, because it is a new mount, so no one will have other lenses for it. The availiability of adapters for older lenses is unknown atm. So straight from the off, if that is true, for every camera they will definitely sell one lens. What happens when someone buys multiple cameras though, time will tell. I certainly would not like two of the same lens, especially with no second hand market, because everyone has one.

Saying that, I don't think the Nikon mirrorless will be winning on size and weight reductions significantly. And I think that may be a good idea. Not everyone wants the tiny and light, though maybe a bit lighter. DSLR users have been living with the size and weight to get the performance and ergonomics, the Nikon mirrorless may be smaller FF than their FF DSLR's, and any weight reductions compared to D5, D850 sized cameras with similar or better performance may be a big draw to many. They probably won't be smaller than the Sony's alpha series though, but for some that may be a good thing, and those people are what Nikon are hoping to attract. Depends if they are better or equal to Sony, or at least not too far behind.

Only days now until a lot of questions will be answered. And a whole new set of questions arise.

 

[JJ!]

Marketing, and changing public perception is very hard to do. About 10+ years ago I was working in John Lewis, and the iPod was all the rage, but it wasn't the best music player available. Because of the popularity of the iPod, they had sold out. You would tell people, we are sold out, but this (can't remember what it was) is better anyway! No, they want an iPod. Now you don't get commission in JL, and you got no instructions to sell one thing over another, you were employed to know what you were talking about, so I was just trying to help someone get a music player in the run up to Christmas. But no, iPod or nothing.

As for multiple lenses when going mirrorless, I would think on average they would sell more than the one or two lenses sold with most DSLRs because a new system may have to totally replace a DSLR and multiple lenses. Apart from Sony mirrorless, I'm not sure you can use lenses from Canon, Nikon on other mirrorless brands reliably, if at all, via an adapter. So if you go Fuji, Panasonic, Olympus etc, you are most likely replacing all previous lenses (if possible) when changing systems, and that may push the average up for 2+ lenses. Add to that that for Fuji, Panasonic, Olympus especially, the size / weight reductions of the system is also in the lenses, whereas you may have been able to comfortably carry a camera and a lens or two previously, you may now be able to carry a camera and 3-4 lenses for a similar weight and size taken up in a bag, so if size and weight was what was holding you back from buying more lenses, that may have been eliminated wit a change in system. Again, possibly adding to an increase in the multiple lens ownership numbers. And you would think a great incentive to get into a market when you will probably be selling more lenses with a new system.

I think I read that there is rumour of the Nikon mirrorless cameras only being available with a kit lens, at least initially, because it is a new mount, so no one will have other lenses for it. The availiability of adapters for older lenses is unknown atm. So straight from the off, if that is true, for every camera they will definitely sell one lens. What happens when someone buys multiple cameras though, time will tell. I certainly would not like two of the same lens, especially with no second hand market, because everyone has one.

Saying that, I don't think the Nikon mirrorless will be winning on size and weight reductions significantly. And I think that may be a good idea. Not everyone wants the tiny and light, though maybe a bit lighter. DSLR users have been living with the size and weight to get the performance and ergonomics, the Nikon mirrorless may be smaller FF than their FF DSLR's, and any weight reductions compared to D5, D850 sized cameras with similar or better performance may be a big draw to many. They probably won't be smaller than the Sony's alpha series though, but for some that may be a good thing, and those people are what Nikon are hoping to attract. Depends if they are better or equal to Sony, or at least not too far behind.

Only days now until a lot of questions will be answered. And a whole new set of questions arise.

Pretty sure Nikon said in first spoiler their would be an adaptor for old lenses.

I also hope it’s bigger than the A7, well height wise at least. So you do not need a grip to make larger lenses comfortable, as a user I don’t really want to be forced in to a grip!

 

[redhed17]

Pretty sure Nikon said in first spoiler their would be an adaptor for old lenses.

I also hope it’s bigger than the A7, well height wise at least. So you do not need a grip to make larger lenses comfortable, as a user I don’t really want to be forced in to a grip!

How much do you think Nikon will charge for an Adapter though? If they overcharge as much as they do for their grips, then it may be cheaper to get it with a lens initially. Then again, you may have no choice, at least to start with.

I think the height and width will be very similar to the D7500, and that doesn't even have a grip available, afaik, and seems large enough for most people.

 

[snerkler]

How much do you think Nikon will charge for an Adapter though? If they overcharge as much as they do for their grips, then it may be cheaper to get it with a lens initially. Then again, you may have no choice, at least to start with.

I think the height and width will be very similar to the D7500, and that doesn't even have a grip available, afaik, and seems large enough for most people.

What would be a really good selling point is if it was included with the camera. Highly unlikely I know, but it would be a good move if they want a large portion of customers to make the switch.

 

[jonneymendoza]

What would be a really good selling point is if it was included with the camera. Highly unlikely I know, but it would be a good move if they want a large portion of customers to make the switch.

Places like jessops etc may bundle one with it?

 

[snerkler]

Places like jessops etc may bundle one with it?

For a fee yes

 

[jonneymendoza]

yea hehe

 

[Phil V]

Assuming current lenses are fully compatible, which the same can be said about Nikon.

Really? Like all ‘F mount lenses ‘fit’ all Nikon DSLRs; except they really aren’t ‘compatible’ at all are they, with so many variables there’s a whole table of issues to study.

The Canon lenses will ‘just work’ because Canon threw their MF users under a bus by designing a completely electronic mount that was designed to be somewhat future proof.

 

[redhed17]

What would be a really good selling point is if it was included with the camera. Highly unlikely I know, but it would be a good move if they want a large portion of customers to make the switch.

It would be a genius move, but not only do they have to make money from designing and making the adapter, they also want to encourage people to buy the new lenses they will make for the new system. Make it too easy to use your old lenses would be very risky.

Obviously if the can't make an adapter work almost perfectly with older lenses then the new lenses will always appeal over using older lenses. That's a fine line they have to think about. Older lenses will be crucial though until they can build new (improved ) versions old, and new lens ideas, to fill out their lens range for mirrorless.

 

[twist]

Really? Like all ‘F mount lenses ‘fit’ all Nikon DSLRs; except they really aren’t ‘compatible’ at all are they, with so many variables there’s a whole table of issues to study.

The Canon lenses will ‘just work’ because Canon threw their MF users under a bus by designing a completely electronic mount that was designed to be somewhat future proof.

The af lenses won't be effected, it's only the early Nikon manual stuff that doesn't play nice all the time on certain digital Nikon's... Metering and exposure afaik and on mirrorless that's not an issue as the old stuff have aperture rings.

 

[ancient_mariner]

The af lenses won't be effected, it's only the early Nikon manual stuff that doesn't play nice all the time on certain digital Nikon's... Metering and exposure afaik and on mirrorless that's not an issue as the old stuff have aperture rings.

There are quite a lot of compatibility issues between various cameras and AF lenses. For example I own an IR converted D70, and a number current and past lenses are completely incompatible (no AF, metering or iris control). None of the screw-driven lenses are AF compatible with the entry and enthusiast level crop cameras in the 3XXX and 5XXX series. It would not be surprising if screw-drive AF lenses were incompatible with both the body and any adapters from Nikon.