Sea Eagles return to the Isle of Wight...

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#5
If they have the same breeding success as they've had in the north, you may not need even a 2hr drive to see them in a few years time :)
Just how big a body of water do they need to live nearby........because I surmise it depends far inland you live?

I may be too old in a few years time Jan :D
:Lol: you and me both, perhaps?

It took the Chiltern Valley release Red Kites more than 30 years to be seen in small numbers in Surrey;)
 
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#6
It will be nice to see them, but it's certainly not a popular idea with the local farmers as they already have a huge bird problem. As you'll see in the video, the introduction of Sea Eagles close by is not going to be appreciated. This farm is just a few miles away from me.

WARNING: This video is not for the squeamish.

View: https://youtu.be/EaMa1WHZOUs
 
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#8
It will be nice to see them, but it's certainly not a popular idea with the local farmers as they already have a huge bird problem. As you'll see in the video, the introduction of Sea Eagles close by is not going to be appreciated. This farm is just a few miles away from me.

WARNING: This video is not for the squeamish.

View: https://youtu.be/EaMa1WHZOUs
I can see that might be a problem. Both farmer and shepherd seemed very reasonable people.

I wasn't sure if it was crows or ravens that were the culprits?
The narrative does blame the corvids though mainly ravens mentioned.

As you say both farmer and shepherd came across as enlightened and pragmatic.

The narrator on the other hand IMO showed a marked bias:-

If the introduced fledglings have been fed lamb (surely conjecture!) that does not mean they have been taught by the adults to go for lamb.

The impact of predation by flock species i.e. the corvids will be different to that of a territorial apex predator, so as the farmer said if there is a negative impact what compensation measures will be in place.

The narration mentioned 60 Sea Eagles......I must re-read the article but I thought they said 6 were being released? If 6 that video is a gross attempt to create fear in the farming community! :(

PS as I read it ~ they are releasing 3 pairs per year for 5 years that makes 30 birds.....they may not breed until 2024. In that time, how many will survive and then successfully find a mate & a territory. So, if I did hear the narrative correctly where did 'they' get the 60 figure from and which experts in animal behaviour did they consult to conclude(?) that the lambs would be at significant risk???
 
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#9
Good points, Box.

It looked like there were considerable numbers of corvids in that field, which suggests crows, not ravens. I didn't see any buzzards although they were mentioned in the commentary.

IF the video was produced by one of the farming unions or another branch of the farming lobby, we can expect it to be full of opinion but very low on facts! Don't get me started on that........

But I agree with those who say that if predation by introduced sea eagles is proven, compensation should be paid, at least temporarily.

EDIT - I see the vid was produced by the Fieldsports Channel!

EDIT No 2 - Say no more........
 
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#10
Very good points both - and yes it is obviously a little biased as you said. I must admit, I missed the 'exaggeration'.

I'd like to think that we could re-introduce animals that have been lost from our wild places, but far too many of the people involved in these ideas don't consider the consequences; grey squirrel, mink, crayfish etc. in the long term.

Still, I have no real knowledge of either side of the arguments so I'm far from qualified to have an opinion of any worth.
 
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#11
Good points, Box.

It looked like there were considerable numbers of corvids in that field, which suggests crows, not ravens. I didn't see any buzzards although they were mentioned in the commentary.

IF the video was produced by one of the farming unions or another branch of the farming lobby, we can expect it to be full of opinion but very low on facts! Don't get me started on that........

But I agree with those who say that if predation by introduced sea eagles is proven, compensation should be paid, at least temporarily.

EDIT - I see the vid was produced by the Fieldsports Channel!

EDIT No 2 - Say no more........
On a not dissimilar note ~ grouse moors and Hen Harriers. Cannot recall which program it was but someone on it said that no moor owner or those that worked there would kill them. Well, clearly he did not want to 'out" the bad apples (management & gamekeepers?) that do put out poison bait.

When such organisations as made the video and the other one I mention act in a 100% positive manner in regard accuracy & fact about wildlife & land management, then I will take them seriously. Until then all I hear from them is excuses to excuse their fellow thinkers who are those bad apples!
 
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#12
I'm sure current re-introductions are considered very much more carefully than the ones you mention, which were done without any thought for the consequences for native wildlife. Mink for sure were kept in cages for their fur but released by misguided animal rights activists, to unintentionally create havoc among native wildlife.
 
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#13
Good points, Box.

It looked like there were considerable numbers of corvids in that field, which suggests crows, not ravens. I didn't see any buzzards although they were mentioned in the commentary.

IF the video was produced by one of the farming unions or another branch of the farming lobby, we can expect it to be full of opinion but very low on facts! Don't get me started on that........

But I agree with those who say that if predation by introduced sea eagles is proven, compensation should be paid, at least temporarily.

EDIT - I see the vid was produced by the Fieldsports Channel!

EDIT No 2 - Say no more........
I’m not sure what you want here. Are you asking for bird charities to produce videos about the problems farmers are having with birds before you will believe them? Good luck with that. You need to criticise the message not the messenger.
 
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#14
Very good points both - and yes it is obviously a little biased as you said. I must admit, I missed the 'exaggeration'.

I'd like to think that we could re-introduce animals that have been lost from our wild places, but far too many of the people involved in these ideas don't consider the consequences; grey squirrel, mink, crayfish etc. in the long term.

Still, I have no real knowledge of either side of the arguments so I'm far from qualified to have an opinion of any worth.
AFAIK
Grey squirrel ~ was introduced straight into the wild as an animal for hunting by the gentry in the 1800's
Mink ~ purely for farming for the fur trade, how they got into the wild has mixed history but most likely by both anti-fur activists breaking them out AND once the farming was outlawed the farmers rather than destroying their stock released them. As I think I recall there was a lot of dispute about who, what and when.
Crayfish ~ were for farming but for whatever reason (like the mink) they got into the wild

None of the above species were intended as re-wilding (even such a concept existed at the relevent times) in our more enlightened times it is seen a way to restore some of that that we have lost. NB talking of lost..... don't get me started on what is happening in Amazonia :(
 
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#15
Just how big a body of water do they need to live nearby........because I surmise it depends far inland you live?
They do stick close to the coast, however Les and I are around the same area and only about 30 mins from the south coast............ was what I meant.

I may be too old in a few years time Jan :D
Having just looked up when the reintroductions were to Wester Ross, which is where I see them, I think that may be 'you and me both' :(
 
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#16
As before a few will suffer sadly......... for the greater good, ie the wonder of eagles on the South coast

This was mentioned here a while back,least ways the thoughts of it happening. I'm all for the re introductions of pretty much all our lost natives. We do have to understand that some good folks will suffer though!! Money can't compensate them........... the affected farmers (maybe others?) for the loss of their stock.

Tis hard to put into words guys I've been a stock man.......... even though an animal might be destined for the food chain one still loves it. Good stock folks put every thing they have into their cared for.................... when natures predators rip your heart out, trust me it is very very hard ,it's way beyond money

Laurence I feel your pain on the Amazon horrific, is it not

We are making such a bloody mess of all this. I feel it hard to be holier than though because of what we have done to our own ecosystem Just saw a satelite pic of Brasil it's a complete tragedy OMFG what a tragedy.......

the good folks of Brasil only want what we have isn't that what their Boris is trying to give them........ the unsustainable dream. OK the true natives DO NOT............. they know what they have and how to live with it without making a complete howler:rolleyes: of it all

and here we sit musing six eagles that would be here already
bar us............ . ;)


stu
 
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#17
As before a few will suffer sadly......... for the greater good, ie the wonder of eagles on the South coast

This was mentioned here a while back,least ways the thoughts of it happening. I'm all for the re introductions of pretty much all our lost natives. We do have to understand that some good folks will suffer though!! Money can't compensate them........... the affected farmers (maybe others?) for the loss of their stock.

Tis hard to put into words guys I've been a stock man.......... even though an animal might be destined for the food chain one still loves it. Good stock folks put every thing they have into their cared for.................... when natures predators rip your heart out, trust me it is very very hard ,it's way beyond money

Laurence I feel your pain on the Amazon horrific, is it not

We are making such a bloody mess of all this. I feel it hard to be holier than though because of what we have done to our own ecosystem Just saw a satelite pic of Brasil it's a complete tragedy OMFG what a tragedy.......

the good folks of Brasil only want what we have isn't that what their Boris is trying to give them........ the unsustainable dream. OK the true natives DO NOT............. they know what they have and how to live with it without making a complete howler:rolleyes: of it all

and here we sit musing six eagles that would be here already
bar us............ . ;)


stu
Lot of sense Stu but “what we did to our ecosystem” was done in ignorance and the past is the past.
I thought the most telling part of the video was that the farmers are are stakeholders but arenot consulted.
 
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#18
I’m not sure what you want here. Are you asking for bird charities to produce videos about the problems farmers are having with birds before you will believe them? Good luck with that. You need to criticise the message not the messenger.
In relation to wildlife you hear plenty of b******t from the farming unions here in Wales, and I've been on the recieving end of it myself. I doubt if fieldsports supporters are any better informed. If the messengers were more honest it would be easier to accept what they say. In my opinion the farming lobby is its own worst enemy.
 
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#19
If farmers/landowners/ gamekeepers had there way . They would totally eradicate any form of wild predator take the grouse moors scandal of the hen harrier slaughter as a example , the totally unneeded and unreasearched badger scandal . Fox hunting now outlawed but still continues if you have enough money ..
There are sections of the community that would slaughter “sea-gulls “ without realising there is no such creature . Different types of gulls some of which can be aggressive due to human interference .
Let’s not forget that every living thing is part of a food chain .. the predators don’t know or care whether the farmer makes a profit only that they can eat and breed .. ( the predator not the farmer ) and perhaps that’s where the solution lies cut back the breeding population of humans and give wildlife a chance to recover
 
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#20
Lot of sense Stu but “what we did to our ecosystem” was done in ignorance and the past is the past.
I thought the most telling part of the video was that the farmers are are stakeholders but are not consulted.
I'd probably argue that ignorance is still in place Rich......I'm 55.............. look what we have lost in my lifetime. Mate on all levels I wish I was wrong but all this seems one ongoing catastrophe to me .................


I hadn't watched the vid last night Rich,seems pretty balanced to me. But maybe the others here haven't seen what corvids are capable of with their own eyes. I don't need info from a country sports channel or a farming channel on what a crow can kill mate I've watched this happen and shed the tears for my cared for and been the one to put the suffering to an end. Hard stuff to be part of Rich I understand how brutal nature is wouldn't have it any other way it doesn't make it easier though!!

A specific example springs to mind Had a pair of carrion crows taking out 3/4 grown domestic ducks,same thing the eyes. Boss shot them. the thing is these birds were what i'd call a rogue,they were displaying a set of behaviours,ie their killing technique not utterly characteristic. We only got the odd one or two doing this, it was incredibly rare when removed the problem stopped, the problem those sheep guys have is their crows like all crows are intelligent so they have learnt this skill from that odd rogue crow and it's turned into a real problem.


Look guys there are bad folks in all forms of life......there are bad wildlife togs bad farmers bad gamekeepers you name any sphere there are wrong un's,sure as black is black.


Jeff as a farmer or keeper I emphatically do not want to kill every predator ,your post is completely unfair well frankly it is simply untrue. On every level the harriers should be left in peace ,it is a scandal plain WRONG no argument there what so ever !! Grouse are a strange one................ I do actually wonder what we would have left population wise without the toffs fetish for shooting them. Sheep grazing has always been the upland alternative use by man and the two don't sit terribly well together: look at the Welsh uplands they really should be smothered in grouse as an example they aren't though!!.

But mate on no level should these BOP's be being slaughtered and in no way am I the same as those guys that kill harriers nor are those farmers in that video. It's like saying cause some moron tog is trampling over a rare bird breeding ground for a pic you and I would do that............................... we bloody wouldn't

Predator control is used by the RSPB by the WWT as it is by farmers and gamekeepers. It should never be about eradication it should be about specific problems and a balance which nature can't really maintain becuase pretty much every thing here is out of kilter. There will always be those who are going to do wrong but it's like us togs some morons just screw things up.......................... and we all get that rap.

i've said this here before I watched a keeper carry 2 tonne of bird food every day through the beast from the east.that bird food wasn't for game it was for the little guys yellow hammers chaffs bramblings et al. I make my hare pics largely at this spot,the wildlife there the sheer numbers and variety top all the surrounding areas only difference is a landowner and keeper that really care. Sure they shoot things and the toffs have their weird country sport thing going which messes most of us up. But they emphatically are not taking out every predator in fact there are more there ( maybe bar charlie fox) but everything else sparrow hawks buzz merlin kite stoat weasel all in good shape. I'd lay a bet that the control of fox numbers sustainably I might add is why I can share all these hare images.

We as a group share one thing a deep love of nature within that we are incredibly passionate , so when we see things like fox hunting or grouse or game hunting it's hard to be dispassionate So I get lumped in with some scum who kills harriers,it should have me spitting fire,but it doesn't becuase I see all side of this and understand why you feel how you do Jeff. The trouble is most of us do not live in the country haven't hatched a bird or pulled a lamb into the world and yet we are so quick to judge those that have. You guys probably haven't watched a carrion taking the eyes out of a 12 week old khaki cambell or been the one to put that bird out of it's suffering how on earth can I convey that to you what it actually feels like

As Rich mentioned at the top all parties need to talk you can't leave out the local farmers if you are going to re introduce an apex predator like an eagle, We need to pull back a bit in how we judge others try and see their world. sometimes it's very hard becuase we are so passionate .

Oh Jeff I completely agree with you re our human breeding and population There is no" perhaps" it is a given and very simply ,it will never happen!! Who makes a choice to have only one child who does that for environmental reasons?? We barely even mention the subject it's our personal children .......................it's never going to happen way too big a sacrifice for a selfish human to make!!

Sorry for the long ramble i'm not ranting just trying to balance things trying to show you guys the farming keepering side with no vested interest in either profession I stick new build houses together for my living ....... really wish I looked after animals again though:)

stu
 
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#21
and perhaps that’s where the solution lies cut back the breeding population of humans and give wildlife a chance to recover
Are you offering to be first in the compostable coffin? :exit:
 
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#22
I'd probably argue that ignorance is still in place Rich......I'm 55.............. look what we have lost in my lifetime. Mate on all levels I wish I was wrong but all this seems one ongoing catastrophe to me .................


I hadn't watched the vid last night Rich,seems pretty balanced to me. But maybe the others here haven't seen what corvids are capable of with their own eyes. I don't need info from a country sports channel or a farming channel on what a crow can kill mate I've watched this happen and shed the tears for my cared for and been the one to put the suffering to an end. Hard stuff to be part of Rich I understand how brutal nature is wouldn't have it any other way it doesn't make it easier though!!

A specific example springs to mind Had a pair of carrion crows taking out 3/4 grown domestic ducks,same thing the eyes. Boss shot them. the thing is these birds were what i'd call a rogue,they were displaying a set of behaviours,ie their killing technique not utterly characteristic. We only got the odd one or two doing this, it was incredibly rare when removed the problem stopped, the problem those sheep guys have is their crows like all crows are intelligent so they have learnt this skill from that odd rogue crow and it's turned into a real problem.


Look guys there are bad folks in all forms of life......there are bad wildlife togs bad farmers bad gamekeepers you name any sphere there are wrong un's,sure as black is black.


Jeff as a farmer or keeper I emphatically do not want to kill every predator ,your post is completely unfair well frankly it is simply untrue. On every level the harriers should be left in peace ,it is a scandal plain WRONG no argument there what so ever !! Grouse are a strange one................ I do actually wonder what we would have left population wise without the toffs fetish for shooting them. Sheep grazing has always been the upland alternative use by man and the two don't sit terribly well together: look at the Welsh uplands they really should be smothered in grouse as an example they aren't though!!.

But mate on no level should these BOP's be being slaughtered and in no way am I the same as those guys that kill harriers nor are those farmers in that video. It's like saying cause some moron tog is trampling over a rare bird breeding ground for a pic you and I would do that............................... we bloody wouldn't

Predator control is used by the RSPB by the WWT as it is by farmers and gamekeepers. It should never be about eradication it should be about specific problems and a balance which nature can't really maintain becuase pretty much every thing here is out of kilter. There will always be those who are going to do wrong but it's like us togs some morons just screw things up.......................... and we all get that rap.

i've said this here before I watched a keeper carry 2 tonne of bird food every day through the beast from the east.that bird food wasn't for game it was for the little guys yellow hammers chaffs bramblings et al. I make my hare pics largely at this spot,the wildlife there the sheer numbers and variety top all the surrounding areas only difference is a landowner and keeper that really care. Sure they shoot things and the toffs have their weird country sport thing going which messes most of us up. But they emphatically are not taking out every predator in fact there are more there ( maybe bar charlie fox) but everything else sparrow hawks buzz merlin kite stoat weasel all in good shape. I'd lay a bet that the control of fox numbers sustainably I might add is why I can share all these hare images.

We as a group share one thing a deep love of nature within that we are incredibly passionate , so when we see things like fox hunting or grouse or game hunting it's hard to be dispassionate So I get lumped in with some scum who kills harriers,it should have me spitting fire,but it doesn't becuase I see all side of this and understand why you feel how you do Jeff. The trouble is most of us do not live in the country haven't hatched a bird or pulled a lamb into the world and yet we are so quick to judge those that have. You guys probably haven't watched a carrion taking the eyes out of a 12 week old khaki cambell or been the one to put that bird out of it's suffering how on earth can I convey that to you what it actually feels like

As Rich mentioned at the top all parties need to talk you can't leave out the local farmers if you are going to re introduce an apex predator like an eagle, We need to pull back a bit in how we judge others try and see their world. sometimes it's very hard becuase we are so passionate .

Oh Jeff I completely agree with you re our human breeding and population There is no" perhaps" it is a given and very simply ,it will never happen!! Who makes a choice to have only one child who does that for environmental reasons?? We barely even mention the subject it's our personal children .......................it's never going to happen way too big a sacrifice for a selfish human to make!!

Sorry for the long ramble i'm not ranting just trying to balance things trying to show you guys the farming keepering side with no vested interest in either profession I stick new build houses together for my living ....... really wish I looked after animals again though:)

stu
Yeah, agree with all that, particularly about ‘keepers who I’ve always found to be especially fond of and knowledgeable about wildlife. I knew you’d pick me up on “ignorance” but didn’t want to get too political. The difference nowadays is that it’s “wilful ignorance” ie the answers are out there if politicians/voters etc look for them. BTW I have nearly 30 years on you so even more fed up if that’s possible.
 
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#23
Regarding the farmer’s problem in the video, he might solve it by shooting a few of the corvids if it was legal. From my (limited) personal experience crows are so bright that they can ‘get the message’ under some circumstances. I always thought those gamekeepers’ ‘gibbets’ couldn’t work but now I tend to think they may,
 
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#24
If these organisations put as much effort into stabilising the existing wildlife populations rather than chasing headline grabbing reintroductions of species which may or may not find enough natural food would be a better way forward.

In the film the birthing ewe had a couple of problems before being attacked. It appeared to be partially cast against the fence and secondly it was not going to be a straight forward birth which begs the question-How long had it being laying there before it was found!

Although the terrain was hilly it was not rough and they were not hill sheep yet they opted to lamb in the open and then moan about losses. here in west wales we expect losses particularly from foxes so lambing is carried out under cover with virtually 100% attendance by the shepard and not let out until a few days old.
If you lamb large flocks over a relatively small area you are going to attract carrion feeders for the afterbirth and once there will hang around for every half chance that comes their way. i would suggest that loosing 200 lambs would be far more costly than employing someone to lamb them under cover.
 
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#25
Ha Rich I always had ya down as my age or younger fair play to you good sir !!
I don't know where the law stands now on covids obviously there was a big scuffle a while back, which saw Packham getting death threats but not sure where the law stands now.
Folks get so damn wound up there should never be a place for death threats how ever hard it is to deal with these problems. Frankly I see Regen's post as the way forward because it avoids more contraversy than the gibet,which I've never been a fan of really . Even, though you are probably right and the corvids would probably get the message.
 
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#26
What bugs me about the farming lobby is when they refuse to accept that which is completely and obviously proven to be true, and then deliberately misunderstand something that they don't like and continue to propogate the lie over and over again.

If anyone would like to know more about the current example I'll continue in another post.
 
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#27
Ha Rich I always had ya down as my age or younger fair play to you good sir !!
I don't know where the law stands now on covids obviously there was a big scuffle a while back, which saw Packham getting death threats but not sure where the law stands now.
Folks get so damn wound up there should never be a place for death threats how ever hard it is to deal with these problems. Frankly I see Regen's post as the way forward because it avoids more contraversy than the gibet,which I've never been a fan of really . Even, though you are probably right and the corvids would probably get the message.
They rescinded the ‘Packham’ ban on crows but I doubt it’s legal to shoot Ravens without a licence but there might be non lethal ways to get the message across. Personally I like corvids but for a particular reason I don’t want them in my garden and though I get quite a big mob every year looking to take up residence (I and neighbours have big trees) I have dissuaded them with Mint Imperials and none have been hurt :cool:.
I don’t approve of Packham’s death threats obviously but don’t have a lot of sympathy for him since his ‘friends’ employ the same tactics and worse.
 
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#29
What bugs me about the farming lobby is when they refuse to accept that which is completely and obviously proven to be true, and then deliberately misunderstand something that they don't like and continue to propogate the lie over and over again.

If anyone would like to know more about the current example I'll continue in another post.
Nobody’s perfect Jeremy :(.
 
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#30
Ha Rich I always had ya down as my age or younger fair play to you good sir !!
I don't know where the law stands now on covids obviously there was a big scuffle a while back, which saw Packham getting death threats but not sure where the law stands now.
Folks get so damn wound up there should never be a place for death threats how ever hard it is to deal with these problems. Frankly I see Regen's post as the way forward because it avoids more contraversy than the gibet,which I've never been a fan of really . Even, though you are probably right and the corvids would probably get the message.
The issue of the general licences, which allow control of certain birds for livestock and crop protection is now sorted. Unfortunately Chris Packham decided for whatever reason to stick his oar into them at a crucial time of year for not only livestock and crops but also a lot of other endangered birds such as lapwings and curlew. There is no place for death threats but feelings were running pretty high and understandably so. Landowners and farmers who had put a lot of time and effort into creating the habitat and environment to help vulnerable birds had to witness broods lost to corvids and could do nothing about it. Too many organisations and individuals seem to use the whole environment/conservation thing as a platform for their own vested interests and personal agendas. I find that incredibly sad.
 
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#32
If these organisations put as much effort into stabilising the existing wildlife populations rather than chasing headline grabbing reintroductions of species which may or may not find enough natural food would be a better way forward.

In the film the birthing ewe had a couple of problems before being attacked. It appeared to be partially cast against the fence and secondly it was not going to be a straight forward birth which begs the question-How long had it being laying there before it was found!

Although the terrain was hilly it was not rough and they were not hill sheep yet they opted to lamb in the open and then moan about losses. here in west wales we expect losses particularly from foxes so lambing is carried out under cover with virtually 100% attendance by the shepard and not let out until a few days old.
If you lamb large flocks over a relatively small area you are going to attract carrion feeders for the afterbirth and once there will hang around for every half chance that comes their way. i would suggest that loosing 200 lambs would be far more costly than employing someone to lamb them under cover.
I did think he could lamb under cover but it may not be as easy as we might think. Apart from making him change the way he’s used to he probably would have to build facilities that he wouldn’t already have, possibly he doesn’t even have farm buildings etc and that would take financing.
 
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#33
There's quite a bit of history involved in this. Do you remember George Monbiot's book "Feral" ? It came out about 5 years ago and really brought the idea of re-wilding into the public domain. He lived in Machynlleth for about 3 years and while he was there he wrote the book. His experiences in the Welsh sheep-farming hill country were very important to his way of thinking. The term the "Welsh wet deserts" had been coined many years previously to describe the effects of overgrazing with sheep throughout the area. In Feral he went through the economics of sheep farming in great detail, rightly concluding that without the subsidies sheep farming was completely uneconomic. He siad that re-wilding would be a far better use of the land if the farmers were willing to accept it. The Farming Unions went bonkers! They immediately assumed that Monbiot was saying that the land should be compulsorily re-wilded and that their members would be thrown off their land. And they have NEVER stopped claiming that this is what re-wilding means. At every opportunity they repeat the same argument that are going to get thrown off their land even though the proponents of re-wilding repeat that this is not the case and never has been. The Welsh language is a pretty sensitive subject round here, its heartland being in the sheep-farming community so that gets brought up over and over again in relation to re-wilding.

Anyway there could be a part two but i've got to do some cooking now.......
 
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#34
:D
Always suspected you were a werehare Stu :D and seems your ears are giving you away here ;).
Well I'm definitely suspect Rich ..... maybe we best leave my furry ears out of this one it will only distract folks:LOL: Haha i'ma bit distracted myself just had me first hobby over the garden in 28years get in,tog found wanting but what a sight I'd just hand counted 50 swallows on my neighbour's roof,when all hell broke loose

Rich if a farm is loosing 200 lambs a season that has to equate to a hell of a lot of money I appreciate buidings are not cheep and sure much cheeper to kill crows but a problem of this scale must be happening yearly plausibly making an investment much more viable??

Jerry when you have a moment could you define rewilding as Monbiot does,please. I am not aware of the book.
Does Monbiot have a mechanism to replace the hill farmers livelyhood ,within his book ?
 
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Dave
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#35
What bugs me about the farming lobby is when they refuse to accept that which is completely and obviously proven to be true, and then deliberately misunderstand something that they don't like and continue to propogate the lie over and over again.
Welcome to the world of politics. :)

Although the conservation lobby are not averse to being economical with the truth. ;)
 
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@Box Brownie I haven't checked in for a few days - no internet :rolleyes: Been feeling very cut off!!

I've heard rumour that these have been released just down the road from me. As yet I've seen nothing. I'm half a mile from the coast so will be very excited to see one!

I haven't read the whole thread yet, but there was a local consultation and some concerns were raised re our red squirrels, which I have in my garden. The point has been made that generally the squirrels will be amongst trees and with such a large wing span, the eagles are unlikely to take them.

I'm currently reading 'Wilding' which makes for some interesting reading. I believe there is some rewilding going on within a half mile of me too. Our landscape is quite different to that of Knepp so it will be interesting how it turns out.
 
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#39
Well I'm definitely suspect Rich ..... maybe we best leave my furry ears out of this one it will only distract folks:LOL: Haha i'ma bit distracted myself just had me first hobby over the garden in 28years get in,tog found wanting but what a sight I'd just hand counted 50 swallows on my neighbour's roof,when all hell broke loose

Rich if a farm is loosing 200 lambs a season that has to equate to a hell of a lot of money I appreciate buidings are not cheep and sure much cheeper to kill crows but a problem of this scale must be happening yearly plausibly making an investment much more viable??

Jerry when you have a moment could you define rewilding as Monbiot does,please. I am not aware of the book.
Does Monbiot have a mechanism to replace the hill farmers livelyhood ,within his book ?

The book is called "Feral" and is available in paperback. Highly recommended. As is "Wilding" by Isabella Tree, as mentioned above.

There is no agreed definition of Rewilding as far as i know. The thing is about hill country sheep farming, it is completely uneconomic. It is only the subsidies which allow it to continue. It is widely accepted that most welsh hill farmers voted for Brexit. Say no more.........

Sorry, haven't had time to do part 2 yet ........
 
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Jerry thanks for the reply ,it was what Monbiot specifically means by rewilding rather than a more general definition that I was after. Specifically that because it linked to my second question. Basically forgive me not being the sharpest tool in the box................... i'm trying to get my head around exactly why the hill farmers are so adverse......obviously take a mans livelyhood away( viable or no) and he'll be upset,but I feel there is more going on that I haven't understood. Shame I am not up to speed on all this,my apologies. I understand that the hill farming might no longer be viable ,the bit I'm missing is if Monbiot had a mechanism to keep the farmers in their homes and somehow make a living from said rewilded farms ?

Buddy on every level if you asked me if I thought replacing sheep farming in the uplands with a return to what ever those uplands should look like might be a good thing . I would be all for it. Oh hell yeah !!!!!!!!! That said I'd also be looking for an alternate way to keep those rural communities in place. Maybe that isn't possible dare I say viable??

As of yet you haven't given me a reason to stop the hill farmers from screaming. Monbiot's proposals seem right up my street(viewed without knowledge). BUT, It is a big ask to throw away generations of a life style....as we oldies saw with the coal miners.

Don't worry on part deux i'm a patient man when you have time would be fab:)
take care kiddo
stu
 
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