Shooting at Florida School

sk66 said:
I believe fixing the system will minimize the "acts of passion." The short timeframe incidents where someone could just go buy/get a gun and commit a crime. But IMO most of these mass killings do not fall into that category. IMO, they are due to a lack of empathy and some form of disassociation from society.
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I don't think any go buy a gun then commit the crime, it's available so gets used.
 
Phil V said:
But every country has youth who can suffer from a lack of empathy and disassociation.

The difference is that American kids in that state sometimes have access to an arsenal of weapons.



A complete cop out. Sorry Steven, I’m not expecting you to have an answer beyond there’s accepted reasons that we keep kids away from those other things, but keeping guns away is somehow ‘not simple’. Sorry but it is simple.
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Phil, in the UK there is no age restriction on owning a shotgun certificate and you can get a licence for a rifle from age 14 so we also allow children to have access to firearms.
To clarify, anyone under 15 would need adult supervision to shoot a shotgun and there are a lot more restrictions on firearms licence in the uk than the US but we in the UK do allow kids access to firearms before they are allowed to drive, drink, have sex or smoke etc.

And we don't allow anyone to privately owned semi automatic rifles or pistols that I am aware of which I believe is the major issue in the US along with lax regulations/checks.
 
Phil V said:
A complete cop out. Sorry Steven, I’m not expecting you to have an answer beyond there’s accepted reasons that we keep kids away from those other things, but keeping guns away is somehow ‘not simple’. Sorry but it is simple.
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I never said young kids should have unsupervised access to guns... and I didn't mean to imply that. I simply don't believe age is the sole contributor, or even terribly significant. The vast majority of these types of crimes are committed by individuals age 20yrs+. This most recent incident was a 19yr old... not a minor/child, old enough to join the military and to be prosecuted as an adult.https://www.washingtonpost.com/grap...-shootings-in-america/?utm_term=.857a745a8106

There's a lot of interesting statistics in that Washington Post article. To include 17people killed with a single 6mm bolt action long rifle, 32 killed with a pair of pistols (22/9mm), etc. If you look at the statistics of type of weapon it appears to be largely assault rifle heavy, but 24 of them are attributed to one shooting (the Las Vegas festival shooting last year). If you take that out, assault rifles don't contribute excessively to the number of incidents/deaths... the primary factor appears to be "target density" and how quickly authorities could intercede.

I'm not arguing for/against any one thing here... I just think it's not nearly as simplistic as it might seem/we want it to be.
 
sk66 said:
This most recent incident was a 19yr old... not a minor/child, old enough to join the military and to be prosecuted as an adult.
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Not old enough to buy a beer.

You’reright it’s not simple, and I’m not suggesting a single answer, but your rulers won’t even contemplate the beginning of sensible regulation, they’re in the pockets of a lobby group you all should be doing something to limit the power of.
 
Byker28i said:
I don't think any go buy a gun then commit the crime, it's available so gets used.
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Some of both I think... This last incident (thread starter) the 19yr old had been accumulating weapons/ammo for some time with indications he was planning something. Enough so that multiple authorities had been notified as much as a year prior (or nearly).
I agree that a lot of the acts of passion are done with available guns. But the emphasis on "legally acquired" seems to be emphasizing the loopholes/bypassing the system and that's not actually the case... A large number of the legal guns were acquired w/ the background check process. In some cases the check was flawed, in many others there simply was nothing to indicate concern at the time.
A lot of these acts of passion also have a lot lower death rate... they accomplish what they went for and shoot themselves or surrender. Not that it makes it any better/more acceptable.
 
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Phil V said:
Not old enough to buy a beer.

You’reright it’s not simple, and I’m not suggesting a single answer, but your rulers won’t even contemplate the beginning of sensible regulation, they’re in the pockets of a lobby group you all should be doing something to limit the power of.
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I can agree with that.
 
PaulF said:
Phil, in the UK there is no age restriction on owning a shotgun certificate and you can get a licence for a rifle from age 14 so we also allow children to have access to firearms.
To clarify, anyone under 15 would need adult supervision to shoot a shotgun and there are a lot more restrictions on firearms licence in the uk than the US but we in the UK do allow kids access to firearms before they are allowed to drive, drink, have sex or smoke etc.

And we don't allow anyone to privately owned semi automatic rifles or pistols that I am aware of which I believe is the major issue in the US along with lax regulations/checks.
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We don’t have too many 17 year olds with 3 assault rifles and enough ammo to take out a village (like the kid who was just arrested after a threat).

And as I posted earlier, our laws also allow the transport of weapons, but you try walking down the High St with a weapon on show.
 
PaulF said:
And we don't allow anyone to privately owned semi automatic rifles or pistols that I am aware of which I believe is the major issue in the US along with lax regulations/checks.
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From what I have read in the UK semi-automatic .22s are legal, as are large(r) capacity pump/semi-auto shotguns and lever action rifles... plenty of damage can be done with those.
 
Over in the U.K. We had our handguns banned after a shooting.
Over in the us, the AR-15 has been used in so many shootings, itsgot to be banned/restricted, along with its similar types.


Parkland, Florida is just the latest. 17 dead in a school
Southerland springs baptist church , 26 dead
Las Vegas concert, 58 dead, hundreds injured
Orlando nightclub, 49 dead, 50 injured
Sandy hook, San Bernadine, Colorado... the list goes on and on.

I hope this really is an incentive for change now
 
Dave70D said:
If you scroll down it now says 4 police did not go in, just gets worse :(


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-43173753
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the alternative is what happened here in Hungerford years ago, emergency services rushed in to help and became targets themselves. Don't confuse cowardice with not being stupid. I am sure that once they had a grip on what it was they were dealing with and where, and whether they had the chance of a successful outcome, they would have gone in too. It's utterly pointless and stupid to go charging in to be a victim too.
 
sk66 said:
From what I have read in the UK semi-automatic .22s are legal, as are large(r) capacity pump/semi-auto shotguns and lever action rifles... plenty of damage can be done with those.
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You have to really justify having a rifle, you can't just buy one/own one. Pest control, target shooting club etc.
Semi auto is allowed but no bigger than .22 caliber.
3 shot limit on a semi Auto shotgun
 
Phil V said:
We don’t have too many 17 year olds with 3 assault rifles and enough ammo to take out a village (like the kid who was just arrested after a threat).

And as I posted earlier, our laws also allow the transport of weapons, but you try walking down the High St with a weapon on show.
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I don't disagree with any of that, and that's the way I'd prefer it to stay, pitter the US wasn't the same.
I was just pointing out that the age restriction for access to firearms in the UK wasn't as restrictive as you thought they were.
Assault rifles are simply not available in the UK, quite rightly.

I have used a semi automatic pistol in Australia in the nineties, as a guest of a friend at a gun club with restrictions on the amount of rounds loaded. As an observation of their rules at that time, we were not allowed to used a .38 handgun as it was a weekday!

The US regulations are plain nuts with regard to which weapons are available to who.
I'd be interested to know if there are any difference in checks/restrictions dependent on the type of gun being purchased or if the same check which would allow a .22 single shot rifle would also allow the highest powered semi automatic rifle and a bump stock etc.
 
sk66 said:
From what I have read in the UK semi-automatic .22s are legal, as are large(r) capacity pump/semi-auto shotguns and lever action rifles... plenty of damage can be done with those.
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I think you’re missing just how strict (some would argue too strict) our regulatory regime is. After having being granted a certificate you’re under scrutiny. Your medical records are flagged reminding your doctor if they have a concern to contact the police. Come to police attention(for whatever reason) and you’ll be flagged. 99% of the time that’ll need or get no action from them but they will remove legally held guns if there is a concern.
 
Dave70D said:
So rump has said he will change some things, how easy to blame other things and not stand up for the high school shootings :(


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-43168774
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That's the first sensible thing I've heard from Trump.
In order to get public acceptance of stronger and stronger gun control measures, you have to wean as much of the US off of the "guns are cool" culture as possible. Guns are heavily glamourised in films, games and music. Passing on to the next generation the desire to own a gun for fun. And thus perpetuating the high death toll figures.
Cultural change is possible. It may take a while. But you have to get started on it. And de-glamourisation is one of the first steps.
 
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ianp5a said:
That's the first sensible thing I've heard from Trump.
In order to get public acceptance of stronger and stronger gun control measures, you have to wean as much of the US off of the "guns are cool" culture as possible. Guns are heavily glamourised in films, games and music. Passing on to the next generation the desire to own a gun for fun. And thus perpetuating the high death toll figures.
Cultural change is possible. It may take a while. But you have to get started on it. And de-glamourisation is one of the first steps.
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That is wrong, and why. He has to change the law that says if you are underage you can not just go in to a shop and buy guns like children over here go and buy sweets.
 
ianp5a said:
That's the first sensible thing I've heard from Trump.
....
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Did you read the article?

‘Experts’ have failed to find a link (despite many studies’ but Trump uses his favourite fudge when he ‘thinks’ something (which is often a euphemism for I saw it on Fox News) which is ‘many people are telling me’.

Not that I wouldn’t like to see a little less violence sold to kids, but there’s no more sense here than in anything else the orange arse spouts.
 
Dave70D said:
That is wrong, and why. He has to change the law that says if you are underage you can not just go in to a shop and buy guns like children over here go and buy sweets.
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And if that law is unpopular, it won't get voted in.

And it's not just kids killing people.

So there are a whole load of changes that are needed to reduce the huge death toll.
 
Dave70D said:
That is wrong, and why. He has to change the law that says if you are underage you can not just go in to a shop and buy guns like children over here go and buy sweets.
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Particularly as some of our ‘sweets’ are too dangerous for them :p
 
ianp5a said:
That's the first sensible thing I've heard from Trump.
In order to get public acceptance of stronger and stronger gun control measures, you have to wean as much of the US off of the "guns are cool" culture as possible. Guns are heavily glamourised in films, games and music. Passing on to the next generation the desire to own a gun for fun. And thus perpetuating the high death toll figures.
Cultural change is possible. It may take a while. But you have to get started on it. And de-glamourisation is one of the first steps.
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That has been shown to be nonsense time after time. It has no effect on any other country and so of course Trump will spout it as truth.
 
Phil V said:
Did you read the article?

‘Experts’ have failed to find a link (despite many studies’ but Trump uses his favourite fudge when he ‘thinks’ something (which is often a euphemism for I saw it on Fox News) which is ‘many people are telling me’.

Not that I wouldn’t like to see a little less violence sold to kids, but there’s no more sense here than in anything else the orange arse spouts.
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That mentioned links to 'violence'. But it's the 'culture' that will need to change first. It's already happening.

Most of the people voting to keep their guns and their gun laws, have probably never been violent. The next generations of voters, and their culture is the thing that is going to change laws.
 
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ianp5a said:
That mentioned links to 'violence'. But it's the 'culture' that will need to change first. It's already happening.

Most of the people voting to keep their guns and their gun laws, have probably never been violent. The next generations of voters, and their culture is the thing that is going to change laws.
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Ian, I would really like to be optimistic and believe that. However, nearly 50% of the US electorate voted Trump in, and they are the very sort of people who will own guns, indoctrinate their children into gun ownership/gun addiction, and their children will be the next generation of NRA defenders, who rail against any attempts to regulate or reform the gun laws.
 
andy700 said:
Ian, I would really like to be optimistic and believe that. However, nearly 50% of the US electorate voted Trump in, and they are the very sort of people who will own guns, indoctrinate their children into gun ownership/gun addiction, and their children will be the next generation of NRA defenders, who rail against any attempts to regulate or reform the gun laws.
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Yes but it's always a mix of people who choose to vote any particular way. In the same way as it wasn't just racists who voted Brexit. And also in the same way, a large group of them have changed their minds already.
In fact, from the current protests we are seeing in the US since Florida, a broader set of people have now had enough. This is bigger than has been seen before.
I expect this will all die down again, until the next big incident. But people will remember the last set of protests, and will be predicting lots of support, and so it will grow. But there is still a lot of ground to cover.
 
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Byker28i said:
You have to really justify having a rifle, you can't just buy one/own one. Pest control, target shooting club etc.
Semi auto is allowed but no bigger than .22 caliber.
3 shot limit on a semi Auto shotgun
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My understanding was that 3 shot was the limit for a shotgun w/ a shotgun license, but not with a class 1 (rifle) license... but it doesn't really matter...
boyfalldown said:
I think you’re missing just how strict (some would argue too strict) our regulatory regime is. After having being granted a certificate you’re under scrutiny. Your medical records are flagged reminding your doctor if they have a concern to contact the police. Come to police attention(for whatever reason) and you’ll be flagged. 99% of the time that’ll need or get no action from them but they will remove legally held guns if there is a concern.
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My only point was that the capability/possibility is there if someone wanted.

It sounds to me like the main difference is the efficiency/effectivity of the checks... sometimes our checks fail due to a failure in the system (breakdown in communication), or because it is bypassed (loopholes). One thing to keep in mind is that our country is much larger with a larger population... not an excuse, but it does make having an effective/functional nationwide system exponentially more difficult. To avoid this the responsibilities are passed to the state and local levels... this could work except that states/localities are all allowed to set their own rules, and that provides no "cross border" security/communication (other than the flawed federal BG check).
 
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Phil V said:
And again; throughout the modern world kids play video games...

The US has only one distinct difference to the rest of the world, and pretending it’s anything other than guns just makes them look stupid.
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Maybe it's our gun culture more than the guns themselves? Like I said, the AR 15 has been available to the public since the 1960's, what has caused the increase in their popularity? Maybe it has something to do with the ease of indoctrination/social media... along with the apparent increase in militia, hate group, and terrorist indoctrination w/in our country.

I haven't seen/looked for any supporting statistics, but I would be hesitant to say "this is just a US problem." It may be a social trend that is just more apparent here due to the numbers involved (population/area)... we tend to lead the way in a lot of crap...
 
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Hmm maybe we should look at similar school shootings in other western countries like those in...in.....in..................
 
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sk66 said:
https://qz.com/37015/how-school-killings-in-the-us-stack-up-against-36-other-countries-put-together/

No idea how "propaganda" related the statistics are...

Edit: OOPS- I misread the chart! Extend that to 2018 and we look even worse...
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Our one and only "massacre" or school shooting was in 1994 where a young man entered Aarhus Universitet with a double barreled shotgun and killed two female students and then shot himself. So you can delete Denmark from that list. Australia banned weapons after their Massacre in 1996 and IIRC they havn't had any shootings since, out of the list. In not aware of schoolkillings in italy though there have been incidents where shots were fired elsewhere. There are no specific numbers og dates for each country so.............
US stands for 1/3 of All shool shootings of the whole world
 
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sk66 said:
Maybe it's our gun culture more than the guns themselves? Like I said, the AR 15 has been available to the public since the 1960's, what has caused the increase in their popularity? Maybe it has something to do with the ease of indoctrination/social media... along with the apparent increase in militia, hate group, and terrorist indoctrination w/in our country.

I haven't seen/looked for any supporting statistics, but I would be hesitant to say "this is just a US problem." It may be a social trend that is just more apparent here due to the numbers involved (population/area)... we tend to lead the way in a lot of crap...
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I think the AR-15 is so popular due to a few reasons. It's cost, easy availability, the ease of ownership (so easy to clean etc) and it's really easy to use. There's little recoil, easy and rewarding to get good groupings. Most of all, it's so easy to customise, to make it uniquely yours and I think these reasons made it popular and then it snowballs, it's seen as the rifle to have. Your friend has one so..
 
Hungerford led to the Firearms (Amendment) Act 1988, which made registration mandatory for owning shotguns and banning semi-automatic and pump-action weapons.
Dunblane led to a ban on the private ownership of all handguns in mainland Britain. All small-bore pistols, including the .22 caliber, were included in the ban, along with rifles used by target shooters, about 200,000 people were affected. Gun amnesties came in, there was a buyback, some did ok, others lost money.
Penalties for illegal guns were stiffened also

This was after two mass shootings.

It doesn't stop them, take Derrick Byrd in Cumbria, but I believe it's several impacts the numbers. Gun crime has reduced after a slight rise after the bans.
 
I think that the situation in the USA is far too complex for any of us, in another country, to understand.
For a start though, let's be aware that the laws do depend on the individual states, basically the metropolitan areas tend to have tougher laws than the more rural areas, i.e. it isn't possible to just go and buy any gun with no questions asked, in most places.
I've worked in The States, and my impression was that the vast majority of people in cities don't have guns, don't want them and disassociate themselves from the people who amass huge arsenals of guns and who constantly witter on about their right to bear arms (which was intended to be a collective, rather than an individual right).
The extremist behaviour (i.e. murderous attacks) seem to be more or less restricted to gun nuts, who have these vast collections of automatic weapons, and who also stockpile unbelievable quantities of ammunition (possibly based on the belief that President Obahma was planning to restrict their future buying).
But even some 'normal' people can be well over the top, by our standards. I remember a long conversation with a guy who lives in Boston, Mass - a medical doctor so not stupid - who told me that he has at least 2 9mm semis hidden in every single room in his house, in condition zero, just in case of attack, and despite having young kids...
And many Americans seem to be obsessed by excessive power - look on the forums, there are loads of questions about which type of shotgun ammo is best for home defence, with nearly everyone opting for massvely powerful magnum cartridges loaded with the biggest possible pellets. There was one tragic case that I remember, the householder shot a burglar at close range, the shot went through him, through the wall behind him and killed the 17 year old daughter who was behind the wall - it would be funny if it wasn't tragic, because even the low relatively low powered clay cartridges that I use will kill, without question, at 30m, and there aren't many homes that have rooms larger than that...
As for the types of guns that people are allowed to own, I see no legitimate use for fully automatic, semi automatic or for action mods that convert semis to full auto, these weapons are designed for military use and have limited application for law enforcement agencies, but have no legitimate application for private owners.. Nor do I see any legitimate private use for multiple shot semi auto handguns such as the Glock range, which being made largely from plastic are harder to detect with security equipment.
If people are into target shooting, then single shot Martini action, or bolt action, is all that's needed (rapid rates of fire heat up the barrel and destroy accuracy) and if people are into hunting animals, then bolt action is perfect, and safe - no need whatever for anything that can be fired faster.

I believe that we've got the balance about right here in the UK. We have the freedom to own guns provided that we are of good character, don't drink excessively and in good health. Many people own shotguns for pest control or for shooting sports, and crime with these legally held firearms is virtually non-existent. And a lot of us have rifles too, but if we want to buy a rifle then we need to demonstrate a good reason for having it, and there are restrictions on the amount and type of ammo that we can buy. .22 Semi auto rifles are used for some shooting sports, personally I don't like them but I do accept that some people do have a good reason for having them - I'll stick with my bolt action rifles, the ones that I have can hold between 4 and 10 rounds, and that's more than enough for legitimate use, IMO.
As for handguns, these are even more tightly controlled and require a S.5 certificate. Those of us who have them for humane despatch, can only load 2 rounds, which is 1 more than should be needed by a competent shooter putting an animal out of its misery. Black powder (gunpowder) pistols are available on S.1 certificates, but these are not really serious weapons, and the long pistols that are also available for target shooting, again on S.1, aren't serious weapons either.
Also, although the police firearms licencing departments have responsibility for the issue and revocation of certificates, we in the shooting community also regulate ourselves, and effectively control people whose behaviour changes and gives cause for concern.

Coming back to crime and spree shootings, there have been 3 within my memory, Ryan in Hungerford, Hamilton in Dunblane and Bird in Whitehaven. That's 3 too many of course, but in each case those of us who are into shooting know that the police issued firearms certificates to people who weren't fit to have them, and murders resulted from their failure to do their job properly.
 
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