1. Riz_Guru

    Riz_Guru

    Messages:
    6,277
    Name:
    Riz
    Edit My Images:
    No
    If I was in the Sony marketing department and saw this thread, I would be smiling and rubbing my hands thinking of when Sony should give people UHS-II slots!
    Probably just before UHS-III gets its approval! :D lol
     
    Fraser Euan White likes this.
  2. Phil V

    Phil V

    Messages:
    21,922
    Name:
    Phil
    Edit My Images:
    No
    Or not...

    I’m with Stewart, the most efficient use of the bandwidth is in Canon’s favour.
     
    StewartR likes this.
  3. MatBin

    MatBin

    Messages:
    3,852
    Name:
    matt
    Edit My Images:
    Yes
    To a point I agree but after several pages of this and that moans and gripes surely Raymond's main gripe would be addressed regardless of write/read dual or single slot slow down gripe would be addressed by a great big bu88er off buffer?
    If the buffer was big enough he could shoot 100/200/300 RAW frames at 7fps and not worry how long (to a point) it took to get to the card.

    The 5D3 has a buffer of 7 shots if in RAW mode which tells you masses about what Canon expect the camera to be used for and why they didnt bother to have 2 fast slots. My thoughts are they expected it, the second slot, to be used as an onsite local backup copying facility post shoot instead of using some sort of off camera backup plan. That you can use it to write to both simultaneously is just a bonus. However it would have been nice to have 2 identical speed card slots in the one body but it hasnt.
    I believe the 5D4 has a max burst of 7fps and 21 full sized RAW buffer size so even if we get 2 same speed slots Raymond will get 3 seconds of use before he hits buffer restriction - this no doubt will not be enough, for him, so once again the advise to use a different camera comes to the forefront of the argument. Having said that the 1DX does 8 fps and 38 RAW files so 4 and a bit seconds of buffer - Is this enough for him? If not, then he needs to choose another manufacturer, trade the £22k worth of lenses and buy the right camera for the application.

    Sorry but it seems Ray bought into the wrong system as none of their cameras does 100% of what he wants, he didnt research enough, spent loads and now regrets his choice and feels Canon should bail him out
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2018
    Fraser Euan White likes this.
  4. jonneymendoza

    jonneymendoza

    Messages:
    7,162
    Edit My Images:
    No
    Because the canon has terrible buffer capacity and as I said.theres more to it then duplicate card interface speed
     
    Fraser Euan White and MatBin like this.
  5. Faldrax

    Faldrax

    Messages:
    1,280
    Name:
    Jonathan
    Edit My Images:
    Yes
    The buffer size is relevant because, based on the numbers from the test on the D500, when writing to both cards 'simultaneously' you get less than half the number of shots before the buffer fills.
    This suggests that the hardware is, in fact, writing first to one card, then writing to the second card (rather than writing to them in parallel).

    You could make the buffer bigger - but that wouldn't make any difference to the point that increasing the speed of the second slot is NOT actually going to improve things, as it is not the bottleneck in the process.
    The thing that needs addressing first it to make the data write parallel - once that is done, increasing the second slot speed to match the primary slot makes more sense - but as that is probably a fairly cheap upgrade, it would likely come in the same camera revision.

    Actually, let's just rewind for a moment.

    I've just checked the specs on the 5D4 - and the buffer is only 21 RAW images

    Nikon D850 is 51 RAW images (with a 50% higher MP count)
    Sony A9 is 130 RAW images (but 'only' 24 MP)

    So it does appear your 5D4 is 'gimped' - but it's the buffer, rather than the second card slot, that is your problem.
     
    Fraser Euan White likes this.
  6. Eloise

    Eloise

    Messages:
    1,557
    Name:
    Eloise
    Edit My Images:
    Yes
    Am I a broken record or are you? The Sony A9 is still hamstrung by a slower second card slot!
     
  7. Riz_Guru

    Riz_Guru

    Messages:
    6,277
    Name:
    Riz
    Edit My Images:
    No
    :D but its probably the best he's going to get at present.
     
    Fraser Euan White likes this.
  8. jonneymendoza

    jonneymendoza

    Messages:
    7,162
    Edit My Images:
    No
    Which I've banged on about yesterday and wrote a nice post explaining 3 viral things related to shooting action longer or shorter.
     
    Fraser Euan White and Riz_Guru like this.
  9. Raymond Lin

    Raymond Lin

    Messages:
    6,464
    Name:
    Raymond
    Edit My Images:
    No
    FYI, I bought Canon back in EOS 30, film days….if I had a crystal ball to see 20 years ago what the state of cameras would be…then you'd be right, but then 20 years ago Sony cameras sucked, like really sucked, even Nikon DSLR at the start also sucked. And I am not asking for a fix in the 5D4, people keep forgetting that, I want something done IN THE NEXT MODEL.

    The thread is a rant, I never actually asked for solution, I know all the cameras available. All I am asking is for Canon and Sony to fix this silly situation (IN THEIR NEXT CAMERA, if I am being unclear, I don't mean to fix their CURRENT camera)

    @jonneymendoza

    Heat being the reason, I can see that can be a possibility in a smaller body, but as I noted previously, this thread was prompted by the A7III mainly, and the A7III had a bigger battery so clearly some body is listening and making changes. Whatever heat problem they have, I honestly hope that they are working on this next because all 3 of the current bodies are the same. (this can’t be said for Canon at the moment though)

    At the end of the day, what I really want is that when using 2 cards together writing RAW, the speed is the same as using 1 card writing RAW.

    That’s it.

    That is not asking for a speed increase, I am not asking for a 1DS performance. I am not asking for increase in FPS. I just want the camera perform the same whether I am using 1 card or 2 cards. This really should be logical and simple and the brief of the camera to begin with to have both cards write the same and the camera perform the same regardless of how many cards is being written into. It's not about how many shots I take before the buffer is full, it's about the ability to write to 2 cards simultaneously like it is 1 card.

    Why should I be punished for wanting live back up?

    Is that unreasonable?
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2018
  10. jonoooo125

    jonoooo125

    Messages:
    1,348
    Name:
    Jon
    Edit My Images:
    Yes
    But wouldn’t that add extra costs to everybody who only uses one card? (like myself) or for you on every occasion that isn’t the confetti 30 seconds?

    If you want more you could pay more and get the 1dx ii, otherwise your option means I might be stuck with the 6dii because I don’t need a 5000 shot raw double card buffer
     
  11. jonneymendoza

    jonneymendoza

    Messages:
    7,162
    Edit My Images:
    No
    Would you be happy with two uhs 1 slots? Hehe
     
  12. Raymond Lin

    Raymond Lin

    Messages:
    6,464
    Name:
    Raymond
    Edit My Images:
    No
    Your option is then get a cheaper camera that doesn't have this feature????

    Isn't that the logic of some people's argument to mine?

    Technology trickles down, they come down in price, UHS-II isn't exactly cutting edge……the 5D4 is a £3500 camera…Nikon can do it costing less so why do you think it should cost more? Apart from Canon being Canon and put prices up on everything.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2018
  13. Fraser Euan White

    Fraser Euan White

    Messages:
    1,180
    Name:
    Fraser White
    Edit My Images:
    Yes
    Raymond - the images on your website & your wedding photography is really good. You are clearly a competent photographer.

    I really don't think posting on here will change how a camera manufacturer looks at the design of its products though.

    However, maybe a well written review on your website of the gear you use could have a bit of influence? If an email is sent to Canon with a link to your review there is a higher chance someone would take notice.

    After all you are a pro that is getting good results - but would like features adding to the tool you are using.
     
  14. Raymond Lin

    Raymond Lin

    Messages:
    6,464
    Name:
    Raymond
    Edit My Images:
    No
    Actually, on principle, yes !
     
    jonoooo125 likes this.
  15. Faldrax

    Faldrax

    Messages:
    1,280
    Name:
    Jonathan
    Edit My Images:
    Yes
    You are complaining that you want then next model to have a second high speed card slot, in the apparent belief that it is the slow card slot that is causing you problems.

    The only camera we have got any numbers for is the Nikon D500 - which DOES have 2 high speed cards slots, BUT if you try to write to both, you get less than half the buffer capacity.
    So it clearly does NOT behave the same if writing to 2 cards rather than 1.
    It is NOT the slower second slot that is the problem - it's the internal bandwidth / data processing limitations - and increasing the speed / capacity there is not 'simple'.

    The solution Sony opted for, in the A9, was to increase the buffer size to a point where the limitation when writing to both cards became, for the majority of users, irrelevant.

    This benefits both single and dual card users, so also makes more sense from a business perspective
     
    Fraser Euan White likes this.
  16. jonoooo125

    jonoooo125

    Messages:
    1,348
    Name:
    Jon
    Edit My Images:
    Yes
    In a way but then I’d miss out on the 5div af and also it came out before the 6dii but maybe by the time the computing power catches up, the next generation will be improved at the same price the 5div is now and I’ll get it included for not much more money
     
  17. Raymond Lin

    Raymond Lin

    Messages:
    6,464
    Name:
    Raymond
    Edit My Images:
    No
    Well now you are in my shoes when people suggesting me to get a 1DX….get what i mean?
     
  18. jonoooo125

    jonoooo125

    Messages:
    1,348
    Name:
    Jon
    Edit My Images:
    Yes
    I guess but I don’t disagree with your initial post but the best canon can do is the 1dx ii, if that buffer was in the 5div it would have to cost more and so people like me who would’ve bought it at £3k now have to spend half that on a 6dii or, we would switch to Nikon/Sony. So from canons point of view the buffer has to be less even though it is detrimental.

    I don’t care for the gps feature but it’s there and that space could be used for a bigger buffer and those who want gps should have to buy an extra thing to do that but the same person who decided on one slower card slot probably ok’d gps inclusion too
     
    Fraser Euan White likes this.
  19. GordonM

    GordonM

    Messages:
    152
    Edit My Images:
    Yes
    I’m guessing that as I have had no reply for several hours, despite most getting a response within minutes the answers are:
    No
    No
    No
    In which case Canon are unlikely to fix your ‘problen’ And Sony will continue to fail to provide an alternative for you.....
     
  20. swanseamale47

    swanseamale47

    Messages:
    8,031
    Name:
    wayne clarke
    Edit My Images:
    Yes
    I've often wondered why camera makers dont have built in memory, say 128gb, this just storing the last 128gb and rolling over as the camera is used. This would cost very little (the chips are pennies) and would add a back-up for the photographer in the event of a card failing. Dual slots are a step forward but built in memory would write faster and not be subect to loss or damage as easily as a loose card is.
     
  21. jonoooo125

    jonoooo125

    Messages:
    1,348
    Name:
    Jon
    Edit My Images:
    Yes
    You wouldn’t get a choice of faster cards? It would take up space needed for other things like gps, WiFi, touchscreen, computing power and also, 128gb would do 32 minutes of 4k video in a 5div, not great if you’re on holiday or away from your computer

    And it’s not a backup, you’d only have one copy and if that storage medium failed would you have to send it to canon for repair?
     
  22. Raymond Lin

    Raymond Lin

    Messages:
    6,464
    Name:
    Raymond
    Edit My Images:
    No
    I would answer it but I would have thought, now stating the obvious (hence I didn't reply) - this is a forum for discussion, if I keep my discussion with reps, what is the point of this forum, and ergo, what is the point of you posting?
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2018
  23. rob-nikon

    rob-nikon

    Messages:
    4,680
    Name:
    Rob
    Edit My Images:
    Yes
    Everyone’s needs are different so a one size fits all in built memory just wouldn’t work. Take my use, majority of my trips out are a single day, a day landscape trip I’m likely to use only 4-8GB but if it’s a several day wildlife trip away I could easily take 64GB-128GB. Removeable cards can suit every user, you can buy cards that suit your needs and wallet.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2018
  24. Nod

    Nod Kronus

    Messages:
    30,747
    Name:
    Nod (NOT Ethel!!!)
    Edit My Images:
    Yes
    When I've needed a tool to do a job properly and to be not limited by what I've been using, I've bitten the bullet and bought the right tool for the job, usually keeping the "inferior" tool for the job for which it was designed.

    Raymond, I would suggest that rather than whinging on an internet forum about a limitation you've discovered in your chosen kit, you should contact Canon's R&D department expressing your concerns over their apparent hobbling of their mid range bodies.
     
    MatBin and Fraser Euan White like this.
  25. GordonM

    GordonM

    Messages:
    152
    Edit My Images:
    Yes
    That’s a no then, discussion forums are not going to get Canon rectifying their ‘fault’ as you see it. Try discussing with reps it might get you answers and just possibly help solve wedding photographers confetti problems....
     
    Fraser Euan White likes this.
  26. Raymond Lin

    Raymond Lin

    Messages:
    6,464
    Name:
    Raymond
    Edit My Images:
    No
    DISCUSSION forum…we are discussing.

    Shock, horror.
     
  27. redhed17

    redhed17

    Messages:
    5,481
    Edit My Images:
    Yes
    From what I have read in the past. Memory development moves quickly, camera designs not as quick. Memory is expensive, though gets cheaper all the time. When a camera is being designed, they may have cutting edge tech, but 2-3 years down the line memory may have moved on, Design memory in your camera and you may be locked into slower memory a couple of year down the line. Design the fastest card slots, and the data buses to take advantage of them, and they me hopefully able to use faster cards as they appear.

    I did a bit of testing last week sending RAW files to the XQD and UHS-II slots @ 10fps on a Nikon D500 and got between 56 - 71 files. That was using Lexar 32GB 2933x XQD 2.0 Card and the fastest SD Lexar Professional 32 GB Class 10 UHS-II 2000x Speed (300 MB/s). I have just done it again with the same XQD card and a 8GB Sandisk Extreme Plus 80 Mb/s card. Now it says 80Mb/s, but that is apparently Read Speed, :( :rolleyes: rather than Write Speed, which is quoted at 'up to' 60 Mb/s. Using that combination the number of files written dropped to 41 files before the camera slowed down. The speed of the card affected the Buffer depth, and you would assume that a slower UHS-I card slot would also affect the Buffer seeing as I think the maximum rate of UHS-I is 104Mb/s. With UHS-II the maximum speed is 312Mb/s. UHS-III will apparently allow speeds up to 624Mb/s. :eek:

    Seeing as some of the newest cameras are not putting UHS-II slots in, I won't hold my breath for UHS-III. :LOL:
     
    Riz_Guru likes this.
  28. rob-nikon

    rob-nikon

    Messages:
    4,680
    Name:
    Rob
    Edit My Images:
    Yes
    One thing I’ve noticed is the constant mention of the Nikon D850 as an example of what the OP wants. If I’m not mistaken doesn’t the D850 have exactly the same issue as the 5DIV? The D850 May have faster cards but they are still different types and maximum speeds so therefore doesn’t it pose the same issue? From the maximum write speeds detailed on the D500, XQD card slot would have a maximum transfer speed of around 240mb/s and the SD UHS-II around 140mb/s, to me that feel like exactly the same issue as SD and CF but currently looks good as it’s better than we previously had, in a couple of years we will forget about SD UHS-I and CF, a bit like we have forgotten floppy disks and videos, and it will seem like they crippled the transfer speed on purpose.

    From the discussions on here there seems to be more to solve the OPs problem than just equal card slots. As mentioned in the thread it seems to me processing speed, buffer speed and the way data is wrote to the cards (not simultaneously but consecutively) is as or more important than similar cards. It’s easy to say they should just remove these factors by including the fastest processor and biggest buffer in a mid range body but why should they if they provide those already in their flagship body if that’s potentially detrimental to their business profitability and long term business longevity?

    Another thing we seem to have missed is camera manufacturers try to aim their models to a variety of users. One model will not meet the needs of every user and that seems to be part of the problem here. One persons problem may not affect others in the same way and camera manufacturers take this into account when they design their overall model range. Manufacturers have to make compromises to camera bodies for a variety of reasons including design, cost, space and to ensure there is an upsell upgrade reason to make further profit. If they gave everything in their mid range body why would anyone ever buy the more expensive bodies? Of course that would be great for users but may not be that good for the manufacturer if the buyers didn’t upgrade for a long time because their camera does everything they want it to.

    I think we are forgetting camera manufacturers are a business and part of being a business is upselling and making choices for comericial reasons, whether we like or agree with those decisions. I’m sure wedding photographers don’t give their clients everything they could ever want in their midrange or least profitable package, it just wouldn’t make any business sense to do so, why should camera manufacturers.


    We are discussing it but there is a point where we start going around in circles and it becomes a little pointless. At 7 pages and 267 replies I think we have got to that point and are now covering the same ground over and over again.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2018
    MatBin and Fraser Euan White like this.
  29. rob-nikon

    rob-nikon

    Messages:
    4,680
    Name:
    Rob
    Edit My Images:
    Yes
    No one seems to have mentioned manufacturers restrict memory card write speeds too. CameraMemorySpeed.com quote the fastest UHS-II card on a D500 as 142.6 mb/s, that’s much lower than 312mb/s potential maximum.

    https://www.cameramemoryspeed.com/nikon-d500/sd-and-xqd-card-speed-test/

    Nikon did this with the D800, the same SanDisk Extreme Pro 95mb/s only did 38.7mb/s on the D800 yet 71.8mb/s on the D810.
     
    Fraser Euan White likes this.
  30. Riz_Guru

    Riz_Guru

    Messages:
    6,277
    Name:
    Riz
    Edit My Images:
    No
    This is true, I’ve got the Sony SF-G 299mb/s write SD cards as I wanted the fastest writing cards available, however I wonder how fast data actually get written onto these cards. :D
     
    Fraser Euan White likes this.
  31. rob-nikon

    rob-nikon

    Messages:
    4,680
    Name:
    Rob
    Edit My Images:
    Yes
    Riz_Guru likes this.
  32. Unlocker

    Unlocker

    Messages:
    571
    Name:
    Danny
    Edit My Images:
    No
    To be fair, my D500 can shoot at:-

    2 fps
    3 fps
    4 fps
    5 fps
    6 fps
    7 fps
    8 fps
    9 fps or
    10 fps

    So somewhere along that line the limitations of bandwidth will kick in but at least you can test and choose any frame rate that suits you best.
     
    Fraser Euan White and Riz_Guru like this.
  33. Riz_Guru

    Riz_Guru

    Messages:
    6,277
    Name:
    Riz
    Edit My Images:
    No
  34. Riz_Guru

    Riz_Guru

    Messages:
    6,277
    Name:
    Riz
    Edit My Images:
    No
    This is a fair point, don't quote me but if you shoot JPEG only on the Sony A9 at full 20fps, you never manage to fill the buffer even in the most demanding situations.
     
    Fraser Euan White likes this.
  35. StewartR

    StewartR Efrem Zimbalist Jr Advertiser

    Messages:
    11,563
    Name:
    OFF THE GRID UNTIL DEC 12TH
    Edit My Images:
    Yes
    OK, so we're clear. What you want is for the manufacturers to deliberately cripple their cameras, so that photographers who are only using one card are not able to take full advantage of the camera's processing power and bandwidth.

    We could discuss whether or not that's a good idea but I think it's obvious that 99% of photographers would disagree with you.
     
  36. Canon Bob

    Canon Bob Loves the Enemy

    Messages:
    10,236
    Name:
    Bob
    Edit My Images:
    Yes
    It might be worth experimenting with an old, slow CF card paired with the fastest SD available?
     
    Fraser Euan White likes this.
  37. Raymond Lin

    Raymond Lin

    Messages:
    6,464
    Name:
    Raymond
    Edit My Images:
    No
    Just so we are clear, that is not what I said, I never said to cripple the camera, I said I don’t want to be punished for using 2 cards. There has to be a way to do the architecture so that I am not being punished when using 2 cards.


    If what you are saying is correct and Canon is right then I think I know what my next thread will be….titled.


    Nikon and Fuji Cripples your camera by putting in 2 fast card slots in their latest camera, and if you shoot just 1 card slots, do not get them !


    Would that be a fair comment?
     
  38. StewartR

    StewartR Efrem Zimbalist Jr Advertiser

    Messages:
    11,563
    Name:
    OFF THE GRID UNTIL DEC 12TH
    Edit My Images:
    Yes
    Now you're just being silly, and you know it, and everybody else knows it too.
     
  39. MatBin

    MatBin

    Messages:
    3,852
    Name:
    matt
    Edit My Images:
    Yes
    If you represent the masses of snappers out there that support your wants and needs you may have found a hole in the market, ever thought about crowd funding a prototype with all the features you (and the masses apparently) want?
     
    Fraser Euan White likes this.
  40. Faldrax

    Faldrax

    Messages:
    1,280
    Name:
    Jonathan
    Edit My Images:
    Yes
    No one is 'punishing' you for using 2 cards.

    A manager at Canon is very unlikely to have said to the engineering team "Make it work slower when you try to write to both cards".

    A manager at Canon MAY have said to the engineering team

    "Your cost estimates indicate it would be too expensive to provide simultaneous write to both cards"
    or
    "The added timescales for providing simultaneous write to both cards would delay camera release too much, lets stick with what we have"

    But we just don't know.

    All we 'know' is how the cameras on the market today behave (and that to a limited extent, unless more folks do some experiments to confirm behaviour).

    Canon, Nikon, Sony, etc. release models based on what Engineering say is possible, and Marketing say is wanted (and it they are like other tech companies the two will not always be in agreement).
    If enough customers request a feature, and it's possible, Marketing will add it to the spec - but otherwise it will be down to what whoever is in charge decides will best increase sales and profits, rather than what will make the 'best' camera
     
    Fraser Euan White likes this.

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice