1. Raymond Lin

    Raymond Lin

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    By your comments, you implies that Nikon is crippling their camera by implementing 2 fast card slots. So do you see 99% of Nikon users disagree about putting in a fast 2nd card slots? You can’t have it both ways. You either think Canon is doing it correctly or Nikon is doing it correctly. Clearly they are both doing something different.


    Pick one. You can’t have your cake and eat it.


    If you think Canon is doing it the right way, then Nikon must be wrong.
     
  2. Faldrax

    Faldrax

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    or you can think neither is correct.

    Or both are correct (but different).

    Different people need (or want) different things from their cameras - the different manufacturers make a range of models to appeal (they hope) to a range of different potential customers, with different feature sets and prices.

    With technology continuing to improve and evolve, we don't have a 'perfect' camera, you just have to pick the one closest to what you need / want at the price you can afford.
     
  3. Raymond Lin

    Raymond Lin

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    That’s fine but that’s not what Stewart said, he said having 2 fast cards slots would cripple those who shoot with 1 card so that’s Nikon and Fuji then.
     
  4. Faldrax

    Faldrax

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    No, what he actually said was;

    What you seem to fail to appreciate is that currently it is that for either technical or economic reasons, the camera manufacturers have decided not to engineer a camera which can write to BOTH card slots at full speed simultaneously.

    We do not know the reasons, but can make guesses - which have been mentioned in a number of previous posts.

    Nikon, with their high end models, appear to have chosen to provide 2 high sped slots, and you have the option of either writing to just one, for maximum buffer capacity, or both, by sacrificing some buffer capacity (as it has to retain the images in buffer longer).
    Sony, with their high end model, have chosen to only provide 1 high speed slot and one slower speed slot (perhaps on the basis that if you are writing to both then everything is slower anyway - specualtion).
    Canon appear to have simply decided that you don't need to shoot for minutes on end at full speed, so don't give as large a buffer.

    Each approach is different, hand has an impact on the cost of the camera.

    As the saying goes, "You pays your money, and takes your choice!"
     
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  5. Raymond Lin

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    And by his definition, Nikon has chosen to deliberately cripple their camera?
     
  6. Faldrax

    Faldrax

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    no, because Nikon choose to give users two high speed slots, with the choice to either feed either one of the slots for maximum buffer depth, or to sacrifice speed of clearing the buffer to allow dual card writing.

    They haven't 'crippled' the camera - the D500 can still shoot 70+ images before filling the buffer, which should be plenty for most users (and is significantly more than some other cameras offer).

    It's like saying car manufacturers 'cripple' their cars by providing 5 seats and a boot - the car's performance begin reduced if you choose to have 5 people + luggage in the car.
    They are giving you a choice, you don't have to use it!
     
  7. Raymond Lin

    Raymond Lin

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    And how does I want a camera crippled by want 2 fast card slots?
     
  8. Fraser Euan White

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    Raymond - it has been stated over and over again on this thread and the same thread in October but I will try and explain it again:

    The R&D for these cameras costs millions and the companies need to recover these costs in a way that they feel is most effective.

    At present the may well be working on two generations down the line. If they tried to recover the cost of the R&D in 'one hit' the cost for this camera would be far to high for its intended audience.

    If they keep releasing a model with 'significant' upgrades but not everything they can do people keep upgrading and the R&D costs are recovered over several generations of the model series keeping the price of that model at a level where their marketing team feel it will sell well for the feature set it has. (You and many others are a good example of this).

    They also offer different models that have more/less features so the customer again has a choice.

    The final tech to do what you are after might not 'cost' much more to implement but it's R&D may not be realistically recoverable in one go.

    It really does come down to marketing decisions by each company and their choices. They have lots to take into account to make sure they stay profitable.

    It is in our interest that they do this as well - the fewer manufacturers there are the less competition and the less money for R&D.

    Asking for everything the manufacturer can do to be implemented in every camera they produce would see progress stopped immediately as they went into liquidation.

    Every company involved in R&D works this way - they have to; my company also does this.

    In summary - it is probably 99 percent certain it is driven by marketing strategy rather than technical short falls. So you will have to wait and see if the marketing people think your problems are hindering the sale of their products but I would suggest in 2018 there may not be much support for a camera to shoot at continuous high for 30 seconds in RAW and capture to two identical cards (IMO).

    The manufacturers don't deliberately try not to sell cameras; it is in their interest to sell as many as possible. They will hold numerous meetings deciding the feature set for each model and there will be input from lots of different departments; each company will come out with slightly different feature sets for competing models - we can discuss this as much as we like here and say they have made a wrong choice etc.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2018
  9. steverob68

    steverob68

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    A lots of cars are electronically limited to 155mph.

    @Raymond Lin You have spent a lot of time and energy on this forum on the subject and got a variety of answers, few of which agree with yours.

    Why don’t you now spend the same time and energy speaking directly with Canon?

    Every manufacturer compromises in some way on design to reach a price point. If Nikon can achieve closer to where you strive to be re memory cards then where else have they compromised?
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2018
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  10. Phil V

    Phil V

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    Yes
     
  11. Raymond Lin

    Raymond Lin

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    Then the 99% photographers he referred to seems to be happy about it.
     
  12. Raymond Lin

    Raymond Lin

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    Photography show is this week, I plan to, if I can make it. But for now, is there anything wrong with the forum?
     
  13. steverob68

    steverob68

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    Nothing at all wrong with the forum but given the gains you have made on the matter, limited if that, then you have either more time* or stamina than me.

    *I’m stuck at the airport waiting on a plane. What’s your excuse :)
     
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  14. Gaz J

    Gaz J

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    I'm glad you explained it. I haven't felt patronised since the last time I read one of your posts.
     
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  15. Phil V

    Phil V

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    As a pro photographer, I usually download my images from CF card (USB3) to an internal HDD, then copy the folder to an external USB3 drive.

    Occasionally to save a step, I download to the 2 HDDs simoultaneously. My PC isn’t the fastest in the world, but the drive interfaces are neither miniaturised nor crippled by design. I haven’t got all the read and write speeds to hand, but they’re not ‘slow’.

    And guess what? It’s slower to write the files to 2 drives simultaneously than it is to either drive alone.

    This appears to be the elephant in the room, it frankly doesn’t matter whether those 2 drives are the same speed or different speeds, the simple fact is that the way the write works ‘gimps’ the file writing performance.

    Is it not also true of all the cameras being compared here? It doesn’t matter what type of card, it’s always slower writing to 2 than 1.
     
  16. Raymond Lin

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    But your speed will be throttled by the slower one, in the camera at least because they need to finished together, the slower card will dictate the overall speed, whereas in a HDD, they can finished independent of each other when you transfer files to both.
     
  17. jonneymendoza

    jonneymendoza

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    But both cards slots will run slower compared to one.regardless
     
  18. Fraser Euan White

    Fraser Euan White

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    Probably a good idea to use the ignore button for me then Gaz if you find the type of post you have quoted patronising - it wasn't meant to read like that and apologies that you think it reads that way.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2018
  19. Phil V

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    The slowest one will finish last.
    But that’s not the point, the writing is slowed by doing it to both drives at once, it’s not slowed to the speed of the slowest, it’s slower because of the act of the simultaneous write. Which illustrates @StewartR ‘s point.
     
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  20. jonneymendoza

    jonneymendoza

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    Well said
     
  21. Raymond Lin

    Raymond Lin

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    In the camera, same difference?
     
  22. Raymond Lin

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    So Nikon with 2 fast cards slots is wrong.

    Okay. Got it, glad I shoot Canon then?
     
  23. Raymond Lin

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    Okay, last thing now.

    Just so we are clear, if and when Canon decides to make both slots the same. I would expect most of you to criticise or their decision?

    Clearly as Stewart illustrates, 99% of photographers clearly don’t want that.

    Honestly, I don’t buy it, because if one think Canon is doing it the right way then why did Nikon and Fuji “upgrades” to dual fast cards? I’m pretty sure previousl generations they had a slow slot.

    I can’t see in any way, having a faster transfer rate will make the transfer slower.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2018
  24. jonoooo125

    jonoooo125

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    If you have a double harness and 2 bodies, can’t you literally just drop one to your side and swap cameras, if you use camera on your right side, you can continue shooting whilst already going for the body on your left side with your left hand with minimal time loss, in 30 seconds, even if it takes 3 seconds you have only lost 10% of the potential shots.

    You don’t have to worry about the buffer size, the files are consistent and you don’t have to swap systems, you might have to buy a double harness though.

    Failing that record it in 5.2K on a GoPro fusion and you can even reframe it if a magical moment is off to the side. You could event mount the fusion to your hot shoe mount and go for both methods.
     
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  25. Raymond Lin

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    I am sure I mentioned this…that is what I do, but like I also mentioned. I am walking backwards, between 2 rows of people with arms and feet sticking out, should I fall, one or both cameras would hit the ground. My natural instinct would be to protect my fall….and potentially break 2 cameras at the same time.

    And by the next 5D comes along, it would be over a decade since the 5D3, would it be too much to ask to have 2 fast card slots by then?

    I have asked this many many many times.

    Is it unreasonable to have 2 card slots to be the same (and be fast, i mean it is 2018 now, we are in USB-C).

    Since no-one in 300 posts has said that's just unacceptable expectations, and stupid because UHS-1 is the fastest one can ever dream of….so it is reasonable.

    So that's all I am asking, something reasonable to be done.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2018
  26. jonneymendoza

    jonneymendoza

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    FINALLY!!!
     
  27. Raymond Lin

    Raymond Lin

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    I was being sarcastic…..
     
  28. Phil V

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    Raymond, you have a very myopic (to the point of stubborn ignorance) view of this issue. Concentrating on your specific view of a ‘problem’ that others are trying to make you see from a different view.

    What we’ve established is that writing to 2 cards is physically slower (no matter the speed of the card interfaces)

    So writing to only one card is faster

    The possible solutions are:
    • Acknowledge that fact and you might as well install a slower 2nd card slot
    • Add a faster 2nd slot for marketing purposes (even though it’ll still run slower)
    • Slow the writing in a single card config, to make it appear that writing to 2 cards isn’t slower
    • Add a huge buffer to disguise the slowdown (doesn’t make the write faster, does solve some of the issues)
    The best option is the last, but it’s expensive and such a large buffer is considered a niche required only for the most demanding users, and fitted only to cameras marketed at sports photographers.

    The other view, as I said earlier, is to just accept that any image you failed to capture ‘doesn’t exist’. Worry about the things you can change, forget about those you can’t.
     
  29. Phil V

    Phil V

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    You were correct though.
     
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  30. Raymond Lin

    Raymond Lin

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    I am trying to understand but my brain won't let me get pass the mere fact that SLOWER card slots = FASTER transfer rate.
     
  31. Nod

    Nod Kronus

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    Better stop trying to write to both sides of it at once then... ;)
     
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  32. Jim_Tod

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    Can't believe I'm wading into this after sitting on the sidelines for so long but here goes my turn.

    The only current Nikon camera that you can compare Raymond's wishes of both slots being the same fast speed is the D5 (or at least as I understand his wishes). Both the D500 and D850 use and XQD and UHS-II slots which have different maximum write speeds inherent with the cards. Whilst these are respectively faster than the UHS-II and UHS-I slot pairings, one of them writes faster than the other so it's just a matter or relative speed- they're not the same speed therefore one is fast and the other faster. The D7200 remains current and but has a pair of UHS-I slots and despite the earlier in principle acceptance of this as a solution that's not what I'm reading in the rest of the thread so setting aside (this will be the bit that comes back and bites me).

    On the D5 you have a pair of CF or a pair of XQD slots.

    Camera memory speed did a comparison of 2 XQD cards in single and backup configurations. Link below. In that they got around 250 shots in RAW at 12 fps when the cards were used singly over 30 seconds incl buffer clearance (one card slightly over and one card slightly under). Putting both cards into the camera in backup mode at 12 FPS RAW dropped this to 150 shots in 30 seconds incl buffer clearance. That's Nikon's flagship pro camera which takes around a 40% hit on buffer size in backup mode. This indicates that the technology isn't being crippled but is simply limited in the way all technology is limited at the edge of it's envelope. You could put in a bigger buffer but that simply gives you either a bigger number of available shots with one card or the choice to have a smaller number of available shots with the comfort of a backup. Professional decision based on what you're shooting

    https://www.cameramemoryspeed.com/nikon-d5/fastest-xqd-cards/


    I'll be taking the slower cards out of the D810 and D500 when shooting wildlife form here on in in CH mode and sticking the backup card in when it's CL mode.


    I don;t think this is what @PhilV wrote. You can have 2 cards the exact same speed and at a high speed as per the D5 but writing in backup mode reduces the overall speed you can shoot at- that's life.
     
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  33. Phil V

    Phil V

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    No one said that.

    We’re trying to explain that the moving of the data is the bottleneck.
     
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  34. Fraser Euan White

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    Raymond, after following what people are saying regarding the tech side I am unsure you will get what you want in the next generation of 5D?

    It is a really big ask to (probably increase megapixels) and maybe even frame rate and expect a £3,000 camera to be run in High speed continuous for thirty seconds flat, recording RAW data to both cards at the same time; especially when it's main purpose will not be high speed shooting but file quality?

    You will still be left in the same situation in achieving what you want - i.e. carrying two cameras.

    As Phil has said; what you don't capture doesn't exist or, I know you think I was probably taking the p*** but really have a look at how someone who competes in Martial Arts retreats. They never cross over their legs whilst moving backwards but use a technique where they 'shuffle' their back leg giving a much more stable platform - they do this to stop themselves tripping and falling over which is a very similar situation to what you find yourself in?

    ............but, even if they do manage to do it I am not sure how this will help your situation! The main points you raise during this thread are that you must shoot in RAW to both cards for 'back up' reasons and nothing less will do because you have to ensure the shot is captured at it's best quality. (I do understand this perfectionist approach)

    Imagine that you are only carrying one camera for this shot as they have achieved your goal, you surely would still need two cameras in case the shutter jams or a fault develops so I'm not sure how it would help?
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2018
  35. MatBin

    MatBin

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    I think the 5D3/4 has a massive buffer in jpeg mode, no doubt though that's not a format Raymond's clients would accept.
     
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  36. redhed17

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    OK, I have proven with my camera, the Nikon D500, that using the two card slots (XQD and UHS-II) at the same time that the number of files that can be written at the same goes from about from about 200 with one card to about 70 files with two, and that was with the fastest cards available. Do anyone think that going from a UHS-II second card slot with 312 Mb/s potential data rate to a UHS-I card slot with a potential data rate of 104Mb/s would have a hit on performance? I know it is only conjecture, but I think I may get less images in a burst with the slower slot with that combination of cards slots. :thinking:

    And I think that is all Raymond has been saying, having a faster second slot may increase the performance, and Canon, and other manufacturers, may have good reasons not to use the the fastest cards slot option available as the backup slot, but it would probably be better with a faster second slot. And wouldn't that be better for everyone? And who wouldn't want better!
     
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  37. Phil V

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    The buffer is the same size, the files are smaller ;)
     
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  38. Fraser Euan White

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    I don't think anyone would argue with this but, and it's a big but, at what price? If it meant a change in spec or price we would have to balance that out against our own personal needs; trouble is we may not even know what/if anything is being left out for this advance. I'm not sure there are many having the 'issue' Raymond is having or if putting a faster slot in his camera will alleviate the problem for him.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2018
  39. Jim_Tod

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    You only need to stick the fastest UHS-I card in the second slot of the D500 to see what happens. Expect a drop in performance.

    My take is that Raymond expects that having 2 slots of the same fast write speed will give the same shooting performance in backup as one slot- anything less he considers is a manufacturer crippling the camera. The example of the D5 shows thats not the case. The slot speed is just one potential constraint in a chain. Choosing backup mode is the biggest constraint as the technology writes sequentially and not in parallel and that choice isn’t the manufacturers but the photographers- exactly where the choice should lie.

    Different cameras have different degrees of constraint, e.g. D7200, D5, D850, D810, 1Dx2, 5D3 based on their technology chain and these have an effect on shooting speed, buffer size, file size, processor abilities, etc, etc, etc. But these are fixed before the camera comes to market. If you need 250 shots in 30 seconds, buy a D5 and run one slot, if you need backup mode and need 250 shots in 30 seconds then reduce file size, either 12 bit raw or jpeg. If you need full size raw and 250 shots in 30 seconds then put photography on hold and await a D7 or D8 and keep fingers crossed. Once you’ve bought your camera you’ve bought into the constraints and compromises of that technology- buying and wishing for something different makes you the marketing dept dream customer, a little bit more next time but not too much and you’re an early adopter for life.
     
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  40. Riz_Guru

    Riz_Guru

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    What about getting a Sony A9 and then running it at 10fps mode, almost as quick as the Nikon D5 in terms of fps but it would probably mean you'd never hit the buffer?
    I would have to test this out though. :D
     
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