The virus. PPE. Part 1

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nilagin said:
Like I said exemplary bedside manner.
Or would you like me to put it less eloquently?
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I really don't give a s***. You posted disinformation asked for thoughts and you got them. Your only response is to attack my character rather than being man enough to accept it was indeed inaccurate at best. The only other reason is that you posted it to stir the pot, get a reaction and try and make yourself look concurrently condescending and conceited. Yay you :rolleyes:
 
Cockney said:
So ignore the govt science & medical advice and run with one lefty nutjob?
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Well to be fair, 'cos he's shouty doesnt make him wrong. He was a former PHE director and did a lot of work with theHIV epidemic and hillsborough. Is he still a nutjob?

There are other things though, not enough ventilators, not enough people to care for them if they all get used up, not enough PPE, PPE getting stolen from hospitals, hand gel being stolen from hospitals, staff not being fit tested for the masks they need if they treat those positive to coronavirus. the list does go on.
 
Donnie said:
Well to be fair, 'cos he's shouty doesnt make him wrong. He was a former PHE director and did a lot of work with theHIV epidemic and hillsborough. Is he still a nutjob?

There are other things though, not enough ventilators, not enough people to care for them if they all get used up, not enough PPE, PPE getting stolen from hospitals, hand gel being stolen from hospitals, staff not being fit tested for the masks they need if they treat those positive to coronavirus. the list does go on.
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Non of his qualifications or c.v. preclude him from being a nutjob.

Are we prepared for a pandemic? No.
Do I think they're doing ok? Yes.
I'm not a medic but they seem to be taking an informed, measured view.
Are people going to suffer ? Undoubtedly and unavoidably.
Their view is big picture health/socio/economic, which will be much different than an individual's personal requirements. It's the nature of managing a catastrophe.
 
sphexx said:
No, not used them, I’ll have a look, thanks. I guess I’d call that a Tracker App rather than App Tracker, if you see what I mean :)
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You should know my style of posting by now, I always get things muddled up. ;) Not tried it myself, it would probably make me even more paranoid, I would be checking it all the time. :giggle:
 
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Cockney said:
So ignore the govt science & medical advice and run with one lefty nutjob?
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As usual, Brian, you launch into ad hominem attacks which don’t help your case. Even if he were a ‘lefty nutjob’ (whatever that means, sounds like you are parroting Trumpisms) it doesn’t make him wrong, or right. This is an area where there is room for honest disagreement on the best course of action.
FWIW the present gov action seems well thought out and reasonable (could still be wrong) but I think they’ve been slow to get going and prepare the public.
 
Cockney said:
Non of his qualifications or c.v. preclude him from being a nutjob.

Are we prepared for a pandemic? No.
Do I think they're doing ok? Yes.
I'm not a medic but they seem to be taking an informed, measured view.
Are people going to suffer ? Undoubtedly and unavoidably.
Their view is big picture health/socio/economic, which will be much different than an individual's personal requirements. It's the nature of managing a catastrophe.
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Why write the first bit?:( The rest of your post seems very reasonable :)
 
Raymond Lin said:
later the better to be on the safe side, if you can.
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That seems like the sensible approach with the lack of any other medical advice.
Now that my wife and kids are coming down with it i think I will need to stay home regardless, not sure she would cope too well stuck in looking after the kids without being able to go out.

the black fox said:
I think that due to the symptoms your whole family needs to be tested ASAP .get on to that 111 line and insist on a test .. how the hell do you know if your have interacted with a carrier or not .. by putting it off your endangering others
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That would be sensible bit not possible. I didn't fit in the category for those requiring testing before and now they are stopping testing as its thought that up to 80% of people will catch it anyway so no point,.

However, without being tested I don't know if this is Coronavirus or just a bad cold. If after the self isolating period I get another cold like bug then I suppose I would need to do it all over again. :banghead:
 
TBH it’s getting difficult to keep up with the rapidly changing govmt advice . Phone 111 ,now don’t phone 111 ,use separate toilets fine if you have two , sleep in separate rooms ,again fine if you have a spare room .
Most of the current advise being spouted seems to be aimed at the wealthier amongst us . Not Fred and Julie on the council estate with 3 or 4 kids ..it’s obvious now to all this a serious unstoppable disease with a fairly high mortality rate and hopefully when cured might make the surviving world leaders act in unison to avoid a re.occurence ..
. we unfortunately have to trust in our govmt and hope they are Giving out the right advice but I know for a certainty at this moment in time I would rather be living in the u.k than in that ticking time bomb of the u.s.a
 
bass_junkie83 said:
However, without being tested I don't know if this is Coronavirus or just a bad cold. If after the self isolating period I get another cold like bug then I suppose I would need to do it all over again. :banghead:
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My missus has got a stinking cold, no tiredness or fever, awful lot of snot though and a cough from nasal drip
Going by the guidelines no need for her to isolate, suspect many others will be the same too

Also the time of year when hay fever gets going, had my first taste of tree pollen the other day.
Mild and windy are about the worst conditions for it, so again go by the experts guidelines.

Its all anyone can do, some will isolate unnecessarily and others will go out when perhaps they shouldn't have.
Nature of the beast, its not an exact science, just do what you think is right, can't see any other option.
 
bass_junkie83 said:
That seems like the sensible approach with the lack of any other medical advice.
Now that my wife and kids are coming down with it i think I will need to stay home regardless, not sure she would cope too well stuck in looking after the kids without being able to go out.


That would be sensible bit not possible. I didn't fit in the category for those requiring testing before and now they are stopping testing as its thought that up to 80% of people will catch it anyway so no point,.

However, without being tested I don't know if this is Coronavirus or just a bad cold. If after the self isolating period I get another cold like bug then I suppose I would need to do it all over again. :banghead:
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Yes I didn’t realise the advise had changed when I wrote it
 
I am still not sure I get the whole staggered response thing.
If I understand this right, the virus lives for around 2 weeks in a host and just a matter of hours outside. It needs to be passed from person to person to survive long term.
So if we had a country wide lockdown for 3-4 weeks as per Italy right now or as in China would that not be the end of it?

If I were to put my tinfoil hat on for a moments, this staggered response and expecting 80% of the population to catch it and the million plus deaths that are likely seems to be more like a worth while cost to pay in order to limit the damage to the economy, maybe even take some burden off the NHS in the longer term and reduce the welfare bill.

Or slightly less conspiracy-esque, is it a price worth paying for the rest of the population to develop a natural immunity for next time it comes around?
 
bass_junkie83 said:
I am still not sure I get the whole staggered response thing.
If I understand this right, the virus lives for around 2 weeks in a host and just a matter of hours outside. It needs to be passed from person to person to survive long term.
So if we had a country wide lockdown for 3-4 weeks as per Italy right now or as in China would that not be the end of it?

If I were to put my tinfoil hat on for a moments, this staggered response and expecting 80% of the population to catch it and the million plus deaths that are likely seems to be more like a worth while cost to pay in order to limit the damage to the economy, maybe even take some burden off the NHS in the longer term and reduce the welfare bill.

Or slightly less conspiracy-esque, is it a price worth paying for the rest of the population to develop a natural immunity for next time it comes around?
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I think your tinfoil hat theory is probably about right, if you discard the human element it would be the most logical approach.
(before anyone throws their toys out, just agreeing in theory, not espousing it as an official policy)

Not so sure about the natural immunity, these things change every year hence the differing flu jab mix
 
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bass_junkie83 said:
I am still not sure I get the whole staggered response thing.
If I understand this right, the virus lives for around 2 weeks in a host and just a matter of hours outside. It needs to be passed from person to person to survive long term.
So if we had a country wide lockdown for 3-4 weeks as per Italy right now or as in China would that not be the end of it?

If I were to put my tinfoil hat on for a moments, this staggered response and expecting 80% of the population to catch it and the million plus deaths that are likely seems to be more like a worth while cost to pay in order to limit the damage to the economy, maybe even take some burden off the NHS in the longer term and reduce the welfare bill.

Or slightly less conspiracy-esque, is it a price worth paying for the rest of the population to develop a natural immunity for next time it comes around?
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There’s no perfect answer to it. I *think* HMG are saying if you shut down for 2 weeks it would still be spreading within families (as you have found, even if yours is not COVID) and then after 2 weeks there would still be people (the last to catch it in the family) who would be infective and set it off again. You could not keep *everyone* isolated anyway.
On your last point, that was made by HMG, build up the number with immunity towards the summer to further contain the spread, so not a conspiracy.
 
tijuana taxi said:
I think your tinfoil hat theory is probably about right, if you discard the human element it would be the most logical approach.
(before anyone throws their toys out, just agreeing in theory, not espousing it as an official policy)

Not so sure about the natural immunity, these things change every year hence the differing flu jab mix
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But that’s not a million miles away from what was announced so I don’t see where ‘conspiracy’ comes in :).
 
bass_junkie83 said:
So if we had a country wide lockdown for 3-4 weeks as per Italy right now or as in China would that not be the end of it?
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Sadly though, it needs everyone to do it (which some won't due to arrogance/entitlement and which some can't do due to working in police/fire/ambulance/electricity/water/sewage... etc etc...) and not only that, it needs every country to do it unless you shut the borders and patrol the waters. Only takes one person to brave the channel with their family and land in Devon and we're back to square one.

One thing it will do though is slow the influx into the hospitals, which will give more people a shot at surviving it. As soon as the hospitals get flooded, that CFR will go up.
 
Cockney said:
I wrote the first bit because I've just seen him on QT. Egomanical nutjob. Nobody elses opinion mattered to him.
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Is he your doppelgänger? :):):) :exit:
 
They dont want total lockdown yet. They need a certain number to get infected now. They have to if they are going to flatten the curve. Their job now is not to stop infection but to make sure infections are at a steady, manageable, rate.
 
sphexx said:
But that’s not a million miles away from what was announced so I don’t see where ‘conspiracy’ comes in :).
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Yesterday I was a psychopath amongst other things for suggesting nearly the exact same policy
 
tijuana taxi said:
Yesterday I was a psychopath amongst other things for suggesting nearly the exact same policy
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Maybe, just maybe, it was the way you expressed it :(. Sometimes things don’t come out the way you mean on t’interwebs :). Been guilty myself, though very, very rarely :):):)
 
tijuana taxi said:
Yesterday I was a psychopath amongst other things for suggesting nearly the exact same policy
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BTW I suppose you know most successful politicians can be classed as psychopaths?
 
Cockney said:
Non of his qualifications or c.v. preclude him from being a nutjob.

Are we prepared for a pandemic? No.
Do I think they're doing ok? Yes.
I'm not a medic but they seem to be taking an informed, measured view.
Are people going to suffer ? Undoubtedly and unavoidably.
Their view is big picture health/socio/economic, which will be much different than an individual's personal requirements. It's the nature of managing a catastrophe.
Click to expand...

The problem is that the delay phase is we are only 4 weeks behind Italys catastrophic situation they have found themselves in.
I'd like to believe the government are taking in the big picture but honestly the one big reason for the delay phase is simply to avoid the NHS being overwhelmed which in turn is due to the fact it is short be 100,000 staff, 40,000 being nurses and 10000 being doctors and the figures do not include GP's.
But while everyone keeps hearing such figures they are worse than anyone really realises as these figures are ONLY for NHS England, they do not include NI, Wales or Scotland!

Even this morning NHS Scotland are talking about doubling hospital capacity and ITU beds, where will the staff come from?

The closure of large events, schools, university etc is an obvious move, they are well known hubs for spreading germs whether virus or bacteria. By allowing them to stay open the virus will spread wider and quicker.

The only reason be behind "delay" is to delay the pressure on the NHS and thats down to availability of staff to care for the ill and the nations already on the back foot due to that fact alone.
 
sphexx said:
BTW I suppose you know most successful politicians can be classed as psychopaths?
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Probably sociopaths, but not too far removed.
It is true that civil defence were intending to consult those same people in the aftermath of a nuclear strike.
Why waste limited resources on those already affected who will die regardless
 
In theory it is quite simple.

The virus is on a clock, constantly. When it infects a new host it is on a clock, it either wins and kills the host, or the host wins and kills it. Either way, something is going to die. It’s survival depends on how well the host to infect other people (this is precisely why this virus is so dangerous because this is it’s strong point). If you starve it of that avenue. Then the virus’ last meal will be at that host, and it will be the end of it.

That’s why isolation works, it has worked for centuries.

If people don’t isolate, this will never ends.

I don’t think a vaccine will even end it, a vaccine will just give the weakest immunity, it will still stay with the wider population as a part of the general flu season, until it gets passed to someone in the future who hasn’t had the vaccine and then kills that person. If Italy’s data is correct, they are hospitalising like half of the recorded infected, or put it this way, it puts FAR too many people in hospital than the regular flu, without it even spread to everyone yet. Imagine it being world wide, then you will need a vaccine not just for the elderly, but everyone. You might have a good percentage of surviving it, but it also put far too many people in hospital than any health system can manage.
 
bass_junkie83 said:
I am still not sure I get the whole staggered response thing.
If I understand this right, the virus lives for around 2 weeks in a host and just a matter of hours outside. It needs to be passed from person to person to survive long term.
So if we had a country wide lockdown for 3-4 weeks as per Italy right now or as in China would that not be the end of it?

If I were to put my tinfoil hat on for a moments, this staggered response and expecting 80% of the population to catch it and the million plus deaths that are likely seems to be more like a worth while cost to pay in order to limit the damage to the economy, maybe even take some burden off the NHS in the longer term and reduce the welfare bill.

Or slightly less conspiracy-esque, is it a price worth paying for the rest of the population to develop a natural immunity for next time it comes around?
Click to expand...

Nope, not a matter of hours outside as it depends on temperature and the surface. e.g a piece of cardboard in sunlight indoors it may live for a few hours, a cold metal door handle in a corridor (eg in a hospital) it can in fact live for 2 days :-( but then it needs to get into your respiratory system, hence washing hands will stop that as will not touching your face. A 3-4 week lockdown and following all other advice would likely knock it on the head but it requires everyone to follow the advice, thats the key.

As for the next time it comes around point, next time could indeed be covid 19 again, or it could be covid 20 etc :-(


sphexx said:
On your last point, that was made by HMG, build up the number with immunity towards the summer to further contain the spread, so not a conspiracy.
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Yep, that will avoid the peak in deaths and illness to allow the already short staffed NHS to cope a little better :-/

Harlequin565 said:
One thing it will do though is slow the influx into the hospitals, which will give more people a shot at surviving it. As soon as the hospitals get flooded, that CFR will go up.
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Especially as its all so new even the hospitals aren't prepared. :-(
 
tijuana taxi said:
Czech Republic, ban all visitors from fifteen affected countries and a raft of other measures.

We advise school trips abroad be cancelled.
Mr Johnson says some will lose loved ones a bit earlier than expected

Do you get the feeling the government isn't too bothered about it spreading.
Quite a financial bonus getting rid of all those drains on the NHS, got to fund HS2
Or have they realised its all a bit late so why mess the economy up more than it is already
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Trouble is the government are damned if they do and damned if they don't! I thought the CMO and the other guy with Boris made some good points. Getting the virus for most of us is probably less harmful than flu, and it is not a bad thing as thats how we develop immunity. Kids seem to be hardly affected so not sure on shutting schools - my 11yo was hoping for that as he said he would simply play out with his mates if it was to happen!! We simply don't know how many may be infected.

I may have been this week as had a headache over last few days (very mild, not bad enough to take paracetamol) and probably was not feeling 100%). I felt more breathless than normal when I went for a run Sunday but didn't have my asthma inhaler and not run for a few weeks) but temp was only 36.6. No cough or anything else.Lots of others have a cold but it could be the virus, who knows. Even if I did get it the family would probably have it as I do all the cooking and in a 3 bed house you will cross contaminate.

The media are doing what they normally do and causing chaos, asking dump questions and promoting the panic buying fear.
 
If only the scientific and medical advisors read this thread all would be well.
 
cambsno said:
Trouble is the government are damned if they do and damned if they don't! I thought the CMO and the other guy with Boris made some good points. Getting the virus for most of us is probably less harmful than flu, and it is not a bad thing as thats how we develop immunity. Kids seem to be hardly affected so not sure on shutting schools - my 11yo was hoping for that as he said he would simply play out with his mates if it was to happen!! We simply don't know how many may be infected.

I may have been this week as had a headache over last few days (very mild, not bad enough to take paracetamol) and probably was not feeling 100%). I felt more breathless than normal when I went for a run Sunday but didn't have my asthma inhaler and not run for a few weeks) but temp was only 36.6. No cough or anything else.Lots of others have a cold but it could be the virus, who knows. Even if I did get it the family would probably have it as I do all the cooking and in a 3 bed house you will cross contaminate.

The media are doing what they normally do and causing chaos, asking dump questions and promoting the panic buying fear.
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the thing is with schools / universities they are a great place for the spread of disease and is why many countries have already taken the action, its not about the fact they seem much less effected, it's the fact they have huge potential to spread the infection.

As for your symptoms and home situation its not sounding like coronavirus as you dont have the symptoms and the media? Yep, they are loving it and recycling the same old crap. :-(
 
cambsno said:
. Kids seem to be hardly affected so not sure on shutting schools - my 11yo was hoping for that as he said he would simply play out with his mates if it was to happen!!
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Which is close to what the CMO was saying :)

The media are doing what they normally do and causing chaos, asking dump questions and promoting the panic buying fear.
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True, there’s too much rolling news, twitter etc to get simple messages across, I think :(
 
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