Critique : What do we want here?

[Rustydon]

200 hundred posts, and lots of words - but nothing is solved. Nor will it be. We are dealing with human nature, and we are all individuals with our unique views of right and wrong and all shades in between . Can we now move on, and get back to photographing birds: more "photography" and less "talk" please!

Russ

 

[u8myufo]

Just had a quick look through here,
never seen the osprey shots & I've never read all posts.
but I don't know where you guys get your energy from

Reading all posts in a thread should be a matter of habit Paul, I have had things pointed out where I went wrong and had it criticiced, to me if something trivial has been pointed out then I am of the opinion I can`t be doing that bad,and that really is the context it should be taken in.People really need to unwind,lighten up and laugh a lot more about all of this s***,although judging by a lot of reactions when a bit of negative C&C is given,I wonder if these poor people ever look at life with a smile on their face.

 

[BRASH]

................................... Can we now move on, and get back to photographing birds: more "photography" and less "talk" please!

The definition of Forum. All of which include the use of words/talking to lesser or greater extent

a. The public square or marketplace of an ancient Roman city that was the assembly place for judicial activity and public business.
b. A public meeting place for open discussion.
c. A medium for open discussion or voicing of ideas, such as a newspaper, a radio or television program, or a website.
d. A public meeting or presentation involving a discussion usually among experts and often including audience participation.

 

[gary43]

The definition of Forum. All of which include the use of words/talking to lesser or greater extent

a. The public square or marketplace of an ancient Roman city that was the assembly place for judicial activity and public business.
b. A public meeting place for open discussion.
c. A medium for open discussion or voicing of ideas, such as a newspaper, a radio or television program, or a website.
d. A public meeting or presentation involving a discussion usually among experts and often including audience participation.

Agree brash, but lots of the more recently-posted posts are not really discussing the subject of this thread. Most are just the bickerings of people who have posted more times than I have, as they say, had hot dinners.

 

[BRASH]

Agree brash, but lots of the more recently-posted posts are not really discussing the subject of this thread.

Threads and discussions by their very nature will wander. Look at your comment above, it has sod all to do with the subject of this thread but a direct reply to my comment. That's how discussions evolve.

 

[u8myufo]

The definition of Forum. All of which include the use of words/talking to lesser or greater extent

a. The public square or marketplace of an ancient Roman city that was the assembly place for judicial activity and public business.
b. A public meeting place for open discussion.
c. A medium for open discussion or voicing of ideas, such as a newspaper, a radio or television program, or a website.
d. A public meeting or presentation involving a discussion usually among experts and often including audience participation.

 

[gary43]

Just trying to get back on topic. I do take your point though.

 

[Rustydon]

The definition of Forum. All of which include the use of words/talking to lesser or greater extent

- but this particular Forum is specifically called "Photos: Birds" - and there is precious little bird photography on this thread so far.

Russ

 

[dean messenger]

- but this particular Forum is specifically called "Photos: Birds" - and there is precious little bird photography on this thread so far.

Russ

let me fix that for ya

 

[admirable]

Bird on a stick

 

[dean messenger]

Bird on a stick

and it wasnt nailed there... beautiful plumage

 

[BRASH]

- but this particular Forum is specifically called "Photos: Birds" - and there is precious little bird photography on this thread so far.

Russ

Did you actually read the title of THIS thread? It's got nothing to do with posting pictures of birds. Keep up

 

[Swanseajack]

I had similar thoughts to Gary, but I would let this thread run until after the weekend, for the weekend posters to participate if they wan't, then summarise what has been discussed. As it's John who started the thread, I volunteer him to report the findings to us all.

 

[BillN_33]

let me fix that for ya

Great shot

 

[BRASH]

Cracker.

 

[Nawty]

Well, as the thread starter, I can say in all honesty that I meant 'we the people', 'we the forum members', 'we the whole group'.

I don't speak for anyone else, or any specific clique, or any other clandestine overlord top-table.

'We' is you and me and anyone else with an interest and a voice (keyboard). I can only apologise if you thought I meant anything other than this! I didn't.

I realise that's who you meant

It's just that all I see is the same people having the same debate, which is somewhat telling.

To badly misquote Einstein: only a fool would ask the same people the same question and expect a different answer...

Not saying I have an answer only who "we" are depends on the person posting, if you're Den or Brash then people know what to give and take. If you're a newbie with your first Robin then the response should surely be different.

 

[PINNACLE]

Busy day here.

I bit too much bitching to keep me fully interested to read all posts but good to get it off your chests those concerned.

I have voted for "I want to hear the good and the bad, so I can learn from it" which seems to be the same for most. Mainly because not many people seem to come up with proper critique. I had read the osprey post which I guess started all this. Now unless the photos were top notch and book worthy the critique did not sound unfair. At least it was detailed on how to improve. I have had worse from judges and clubs who can't even do that properly and they are paid. In a way the OP of that thread was lucky as he asked for critique or at least posted where he might get some and there was a response. It is best to have some than none at all.

If you go pack over the last few days and even in this thread there are requests and prompts for critique from other photographers wanting to improve.

The last picture I posted in this forum was of my first ever Curlew which also happened to be in flight. Now I was chuffed that firstly I had seen one, taken its picture with pretty good detail and it was flying. I had searched for other pictures to compare to see if what I had was any good but being unsure I posted it on here and to be honest I did not even expect a reply as it is a bit clicky here sometimes IMO. I did get one response which was positive but I also got 2048 views, 66 faves and 13 comments on flickr so I guess it was popular. I also posted it elsewhere and the feedback was much better and nearly all positive so I think I now know how to take a Curlew in flight picture but the next one has to be better.

Now that response won't stop me posting here in the future as I do respect the skill level of other members and I follow a number of people on TP through flickr and enjoy their photos. Den and his owls being one of them.

I try to post photos that I think are good or interesting so others will enjoy them which I guess is the same for most of us. I am also looking at ways to improve so tips, or hints on that are always welcome, a complete and utter danming is not unless it is of a robin on a stick but even then I can ignore or report.

Can someone start a "Robin in flight" thread as the dragonflies will be gone soon and I will need something to take pictures of.

 

[big soft moose]

the amount of tiresome b*****ks in this thread clearly indicates whats wrong with the section (because you get the same in crit threads) - things would run much more smoothly in general if people just posted images and/or gave critique on them and ignored anyone they don't get on with (and also didn't side track into arguing with crit they disagree with if its not their image)

People receiving crit can either then take it on board graciously or politely disagree with it, without throwing all their toys out of the pram

We are all alledgedly adults so this shouldn't be difficult

 

[u8myufo]

Busy day here.

I bit too much bitching to keep me fully interested to read all posts but good to get it off your chests those concerned.

I have voted for "I want to hear the good and the bad, so I can learn from it" which seems to be the same for most. Mainly because not many people seem to come up with proper critique. I had read the osprey post which I guess started all this. Now unless the photos were top notch and book worthy the critique did not sound unfair. At least it was detailed on how to improve. I have had worse from judges and clubs who can't even do that properly and they are paid. In a way the OP of that thread was lucky as he asked for critique or at least posted where he might get some and there was a response. It is best to have some than none at all.

If you go pack over the last few days and even in this thread there are requests and prompts for critique from other photographers wanting to improve.

The last picture I posted in this forum was of my first ever Curlew which also happened to be in flight. Now I was chuffed that firstly I had seen one, taken its picture with pretty good detail and it was flying. I had searched for other pictures to compare to see if what I had was any good but being unsure I posted it on here and to be honest I did not even expect a reply as it is a bit clicky here sometimes IMO. I did get one response which was positive but I also got 2048 views, 66 faves and 13 comments on flickr so I guess it was popular. I also posted it elsewhere and the feedback was much better and nearly all positive so I think I now know how to take a Curlew in flight picture but the next one has to be better.

Now that response won't stop me posting here in the future as I do respect the skill level of other members and I follow a number of people on TP through flickr and enjoy their photos. Den and his owls being one of them.

I try to post photos that I think are good or interesting so others will enjoy them which I guess is the same for most of us. I am also looking at ways to improve so tips, or hints on that are always welcome, a complete and utter danming is not unless it is of a robin on a stick but even then I can ignore or report.

Can someone start a "Robin in flight" thread as the dragonflies will be gone soon and I will need something to take pictures of.

What you have mentioned has been repeated by various people countless times before Martin.This thread will eventually disappear,new members will come along and occur a few hundred posts like yourself without even seeing this topic.But it will rise again, and someone at some point will again touch upon the same points as you have done.There has never been a solution to the problem,if there was it would have been sorted ages ago.With regards to C&C, you have those that put it across one way and feel that is right,you have those that put it across another way and feel that is good enough.You have those that accept either with open arms and learn from it,and you have those who it upsets.Tell me what the answer is if you want to as nobody else seems to know.

 

[u8myufo]

the amount of tiresome b*****ks in this thread clearly indicates whats wrong with the section (because you get the same in crit threads) - things would run much more smoothly in general if people just posted images and/or gave critique on them and ignored anyone they don't get on with (and also didn't side track into arguing with crit they disagree with if its not their image)

People receiving crit can either then take it on board graciously or politely disagree with it, without throwing all their toys out of the pram

We are all alledgedly adults so this shouldn't be difficult

In the meantime I may sprout a fanny

 

[BillN_33]

b*****ks in this thread clearly indicates whats wrong with the section (because you get the same in crit threads)
/QUOTE]

i agree with the word "billiards" to describe some who just do not want to improve

you can measure the "success" of a section in a number of ways

comfort, nice words ......... b*****ks to me

ask how many have improved their photography by being a member of the section ...... that is the real test for me

then ask why ........ not by arse creeping, "good shots", continually posting crap images that a plonker could turn out with his eyes closed is an insult to many who try

this section is for people who want to improve and produce quality images ......... if that is for you take what is thrown at you and let your improved images be your response

If if you want crap or are blind, continue wanting to be told how good your image is, it is not believe me....... you will achieve nothing and produce crap images that are worthless .... keep kidding yourselves, listen to the idiots ......... sticking a digital camera in your hands and producing an image is not what it is about ..... the image posted above is a typical example ...... is it a joke or supposed to be a serious example of what can be achieved? .. why was it posted? .........if that is put forward as an example that even a beginner should aspire to this section really does have problems .......... technically and composition wise it is an insult to anyone who cares about what he does ... but maybe the OP does not see how poor it is or how it can be improved

there are some hypocrites on here who post comments and contribute nothing ........... negative or positive to THIS section ......... their contribution is just a waste of time for anyone who wants to improve

they really belong to a "fanny" society that has just dumbed down everything that is creative in this country ... or maybe they do not know any better

you then get the idiots who say that the more you post or the more you say adds little and then complain about discussion

I really think anyone who cares about bird photography must despair when they see and read the mediocrity that is posted on here by people who think that they are producing a good image, technically or composition wise

but as usual I am wrong ....... continue deluding yourselves .... all your shots are "great shots" and the parakeet escapee is a really great shot

 

[dean messenger]

i agree with the word "billiards" to describe some who just do not want to improve

you can measure the "success" of a section in a number of ways

comfort, nice words ......... b*****ks to me

ask how many have improved their photography by being a member of the section ...... that is the real test for me

then ask why ........ not by arse creeping, "good shots", continually posting crap images that a plonker could turn out with his eyes closed is an insult to many who try

this section is for people who want to improve and produce quality images ......... if that is for you take what is thrown at you and let your improved images be your response

If if you want crap or are blind, continue wanting to be told how good your image is, it is not believe me....... you will achieve nothing and produce crap images that are worthless .... keep kidding yourselves, listen to the idiots ......... sticking a digital camera in your hands and producing an image is not what it is about ..... the image posted above is a typical example ...... is it a joke or supposed to be a serious example of what can be achieved? .. why was it posted? .........if that is put forward as an example that even a beginner should aspire to this section really does have problems .......... technically and composition wise it is an insult to anyone who cares about what he does ... but maybe the OP does not see how poor it is or how it can be improved

there are some hypocrites on here who post comments and contribute nothing ........... negative or positive to THIS section ......... their contribution is just a waste of time for anyone who wants to improve

they really belong to a "fanny" society that has just dumbed down everything that is creative in this country ... or maybe they do not know any better

you then get the idiots who say that the more you post or the more you say adds little and then complain about discussion

I really think anyone who cares about bird photography must despair when they see and read the mediocrity that is posted on here by people who think that they are producing a good image, technically or composition wise

but as usual I am wrong ....... continue deluding yourselves .... all your shots are "great shots" and the parakeet escapee is a really great shot

can we just clarify what image you are referring to when you say "technically and composition wise it is an insult to anyone who cares about what he does"
i can only assume its my shot as it seems to be the only one in the thread.

which if that is the case there are several things entirely wrong with your comments above
so lets answer a few of those just to make sure.
no the image isnt a joke, though it was posted as someone stated there were no images im the thread.
second no its not an escapee, there are in fact around 10,000 or more in this area alone.
as for composition and technicality.
well lest here some actual constructive comment then rather than the usual its crap image end of.

maybe you might want to consider also the circumstances of the shot. in fact let me show you .

as you can see quite clearly the shot was taken from a considerable distance away. the shot was also taken using the person standing next to me's sigma 1.4x TC converter to see if it would actually work with the lens.
the location. a private farm owned by he's brother and the spot we were standing was a small fenced in manure patch about 10 feet by 15 feet. so rather limited in position.
so rather than your rather pointless, worthless, negative destructive and totally unhelpful ( yet typical of this forum comment ) trying f*****g posting something that actually is constructive and the reasons why you think the shot is so badly wrong. and maybe just maybe try and find out the backstory behind the shot in regard to how it was taken before you make a comment on it.

you have in one fell swoop just showed what is wrong with this forum in ite entirety... well done you.

 

[BRASH]

In the meantime I may sprout a fanny

You are a fanny.

 

[u8myufo]

let me fix that for ya

Dean,I am not sure if this image was ever posted in the bird section prior to this discussion,and if it was,was the information you have explained about the shot ever included?Either way there are a lot who post in all sections that fail to explain what obstacles they had to get over to get the image in the first place.You could say those that are offering C&C should ask,but then after a while it does get a bit tiresome asking all the time when you are just wanting to reply with some serious C&C.If you do take the trouble to ask the OP,chances are they have not even acknoleged your questions.You could say well if you are going to be rude or insulting about it then don`t reply and move on.But then that method will only lead to the OP moaning that nobody comments and they thought this place was a place to learn.This debate has always gone full circle and will always continue to do so.I speak as I find Dean and have been on here for a while now,and the biggest percentage of the longer standing members,and I do mean the biggest percentage of those that are moaning about all this,or pop in quickly and say such things as can we forget about all this and just move on,are in fact the ones that over time have offered very little in the way of C&C to the majority of newcomers.Those people are very good in their own right as bird photographers that I will not dispute.Since the sections were trimmed down a while back,perhaps a possible solution would be to have a newcomer or learner sub section in each of the Genre`s,where people who are willing to help and can offer valuable advise all in a tranquile environment.

 

[BillN_33]

Dean

you posted your image on this thread "What do we want here"

presumably in your view your image is an example of what we want on here ............. or something that should be aimed for ....... otherwise why post it "blind" on this thread?

looking at your image as posted, anyone who wants that technical quality and an image composed in that way is not an (aspiring) bird photographer, IMHO...... he has not gained anything from being a member of this section ...... and any comments given to him in any of his threads he has not listened to

In one "swoop" you have illustrated (for me) what I see as being wrong with THIS Section ......... and after over 200 postings you have shown this clearly ....... for which i thank you



PS - looking at your response - I do not see how your explanation is relevant to anything in this thread - but even so and looking at the image ...... do you think it could have been improved in pp ....... what is your opinion of the composition ..... I do not know you level of skill...... but do you just throw images into a Critique forum without presenting them as the best you feel that you can achieve at the level that you are at .........

If I had seen you image before, why would I remember it, it is hardly memorable

I do not have a GCE in mind reading ...... and if I did it would have been 50 years ago

but what has it to do with "What do we want here"

10,000 does not mean that it is not an "escapee" - if they are were I think they are, that's is how they started - they are an invasive species, unless you live in the S Hemishere ....... brightly coloured and not appropriate ........ IMO ...... but that is another story and nothing to do with the quality of your image and composition

 

[u8myufo]

Read it ....lets move on ,as i have no more to say on the matter with you Rich ,as i have said before to you and i will say it one here publicly not via PM my respect for you was lost a long time ago.....this now stops this thread ,being either aimed at myself or yourself and we can move on.

Would that explain the facebook friends request you sent me not long back then Den,or was that a slip of the finger?

 

[den]

Would that explain the facebook friends request you sent me not long back then Den,or was that a slip of the finger?

I have never sent you a facebook freind request Rich......are you sure because if you have recieved one i would like it investigated because i never have and i take it seriously Rich because i am very,very selective on FB because of my line of work...Ifwould sugest Rich that you and i take this away from this thread and talk via PM (man to man) maybe we could even get a posotive result or via email whatever suits as i cant see this doing the forum any good...

 

[dean messenger]

the image wasnt put in this thread it was if you actually bothered to read put up as a response to the comment that there was no pics in this thread to actually lighten the mood. but obviously people tend to skim over half of whats been written.
still doesnt change the fact you decided to crit on it in this thread with very poorly , ill formed and destructive rather than constructive critism bordering on the insulting.
and no im not a bird photographer. never stated that. in fact i have stated that ive only just got the lens and i have a total of 3 bird shots put up on here with it.

but my point stands which is direct relation to the original thread starters question
critic is fine good or bad, if people actually knew how to write proper constructive helpful crit.
yours was neither constructive or helpful and that falls across the whole forum not just the bird section.
you make the excuse about what skill level i am at, and assume that becasue i posted in the bird forum im an "aspiring" bird photographer.

so as well as assumptions and and several total negative useless comments in your apprasial which offers absolutely ZERO in any way shape or form other than to belitte the image taker. i suggest you dont bother writing your thoughts on peoples images until you have an understanding of them and there image and if thats to much effort then simply dont bother at all.

 

[petert]

I left this forum once before and went to dpreview I did find it more friendly and people more responsive and there didn't seem to be any threads like this one. I think some need to take a long hard look at themselves otherwise they will ruin the forum for the majority.

 

[CaveDweller]

TITS!

 

[petert]

Are the people that call other people's photos crap etc such experts themselves? How many awards have they won? Do they actually do it for a living? Do they have their pictures in magazines etc? Honest critic is all people should want I believe

 

[big soft moose]

If if you want crap or are blind, continue wanting to be told how good your image is, it is not believe me.......t

thing is people who's work is below standard don't improve through crit that says "your work is crap " any more than they do through people blowing smoke, they improve through crit that says "these are the areas you did well, these are the areas you could improve on next time by doing x, y and z

the difficulty is in finding a forum where the crit is honest yet helpful - as many of the forums with a more friendly vibe lack the requisite honesty, whilst the honest forums can be too unfriendly. TP used to be one such but recently its divided into sycophancy on one side and people getting off on telling others they are crap on the other... neither of which is useful and merely serves to showcase both of the bad worlds.... much to the frustration of those caught in the middle who do want to be friendly yet helpful.

 

[Byker28i]

thing is people who's work is below standard don't improve through crit that says "your work is crap " any more than they do through people blowing smoke, they improve through crit that says "these are the areas you did well, these are the areas you could improve on next time by doing x, y and z

the difficulty is in finding a forum where the crit is honest yet helpful - as many of the forums with a more friendly vibe lack the requisite honesty, whilst the honest forums can be too unfriendly. TP used to be one such but recently its divided into sycophancy on one side and people getting off on telling others they are crap on the other... neither of which is useful and merely serves to showcase both of the bad worlds.... much to the frustration of those caught in the middle who do want to be friendly yet helpful.

This isn't just in the birding section though is it, it's all over, just there seems to be more vocal people in here?
I guess as the site grows bigger, gets more popular, then more of these kind of incidents occur.

It's a bit of an internet thing, to be outraged or annoyed, or to jump on the bandwagon of outrage. People wouldn't behave like that when face to face, yet its deemed to be acceptable behaviour behind a keyboard. Its why I do my social networking down the pub

 

[big soft moose]

This isn't just in the birding section though is it, it's all over, just there seems to be more vocal people in here?
I guess as the site grows bigger, gets more popular, then more of these kind of incidents occur.

It's a bit of an internet thing, to be outraged or annoyed, or to jump on the bandwagon of outrage. People wouldn't behave like that when face to face, yet its deemed to be acceptable behaviour behind a keyboard. Its why I do my social networking down the pub

this is true - its less of an issue in discussions like 'what is art' where things are bound to get a bit heated , and tbh even in crit threads between established members its not a massive issue so long it doesn't escalate to abusive texts and threats of physical violence .

What does matter is when a new member arrives (especially someone who's new to the hobby as well) and their first experience of Tp is " your pictures are crap you've ruined your shots with inexpert exposure and poor post processing, tbh i would have reject all of them " that doesnt help them improve it just leads to them walking away thinking 'well i'm not bothering with that forum again, what a bunch of jerks'

how different it would be if their first experience was " hi and welcome, I like the idea of behind this shot and I can see the potential in the composition, unfortunately it does seem a bit dark so next time you might want try (whatever) , also its looking a bit overcooked from the post processing, next time may be go a bit easier on the XYZ slider or try (this techinque) ..." that leads to most people (sensitive little flowers and fight trolls excepted) going away both knowing how to improve and thinking 'wow what a great place'

 

[Byker28i]

Very true

 

[RKC]

(

This debate has always gone full circle and will always continue to do so.I speak as I find Dean and have been on here for a while now,and the biggest percentage of the longer standing members,and I do mean the biggest percentage of those that are moaning about all this,or pop in quickly and say such things as can we forget about all this and just move on,are in fact the ones that over time have offered very little in the way of C&C to the majority of newcomers..

A while ago I remember a conversation with you about this sort of thing, I made a very conscious effort to always comment on post with no answers or only 1/2 posts and give cc the best I could (you were doing the same I felt), it became a bit of thankless task as all too often the op would not return and even say thank you or not as the case maybe. Nothing we can do about that either but it does become a bit frustrating

 

[BillN_33]

thing is people who's work is below standard don't improve through crit that says "your work is crap " any more than they do through people blowing smoke, they improve through crit that says "these are the areas you did well, these are the areas you could improve on next time by doing x, y and z

the difficulty is in finding a forum where the crit is honest yet helpful - as many of the forums with a more friendly vibe lack the requisite honesty, whilst the honest forums can be too unfriendly. TP used to be one such but recently its divided into sycophancy on one side and people getting off on telling others they are crap on the other... neither of which is useful and merely serves to showcase both of the bad worlds.... much to the frustration of those caught in the middle who do want to be friendly yet helpful.

I think that is the first time I have used that phrase "crap" - that image was special

It is not general ......... have a look at the comments that I have made on other images

There are a number of people on here who as soon as you use the word "but" - just go into spasms - they just cannot take one word that does not give them a "loving feeling"

Maybe this is what the section is turning into ...........

 

[u8myufo]

how different it would be if their first experience was " hi and welcome, I like the idea of behind this shot and I can see the potential in the composition, unfortunately it does seem a bit dark so next time you might want try (whatever) , also its looking a bit overcooked from the post processing, next time may be go a bit easier on the XYZ slider or try (this techinque) ..." that leads to most people (sensitive little flowers and fight trolls excepted) going away both knowing how to improve and thinking 'wow what a great place'

That had always been the case a long time back,way before Bill Den and a lot of others joined, again the points you mention were all discussed. From memory there was going to be a handful of people that would be overseeing it,it may have been suggested by @Trev4 in one of the many discussions such as this one,I don`t think that lasted too long either,and to be honest there is no real need to have a special group of people to monitor it.Nobody expects anyone to have a full time job leaving C&C for people,it should be a matter for all of us to sort that between ourselves.Yes crit comes in all shapes and form,someone may mention about a twig being distracting,someone may be of the opinion that focus is slightly out or whatever.But instead of actualy TALKING about things,don`t forget folks the clue is in the name of this bloody forum,people feel the need to argue about it.Some will be right some will be wrong,does it matter?So long as the OP can ascertain an overall opinion as to what people think is good or bad about it then they can thank them for the input,move on and apply what he or she needs to next time,it`s simples really.

 

[big soft moose]

?So long as the OP can ascertain an overall opinion as to what people think is good or bad about it then they can thank them for the input,move on and apply what he or she needs to next time,it`s simples really.

unless they are put off posting at all by an unhappy experience ... i agree this has been discussed to a faretheewell already ( I joined in i think 2010 and it had been discussed quite a bit before that) - however it doesn't seem to change, even though this section has a special sticky from the mods saying in essence 'please stop posting like bellends'

apart from weddings (anyone remember the wedding section ? ) bird photography seems to be the most contentious thing on the forum for some reason

 

[Swanseajack]

this is true - its less of an issue in discussions like 'what is art' where things are bound to get a bit heated , and tbh even in crit threads between established members its not a massive issue so long it doesn't escalate to abusive texts and threats of physical violence .

What does matter is when a new member arrives (especially someone who's new to the hobby as well) and their first experience of Tp is " your pictures are crap you've ruined your shots with inexpert exposure and poor post processing, tbh i would have reject all of them " that doesnt help them improve it just leads to them walking away thinking 'well i'm not bothering with that forum again, what a bunch of jerks'

how different it would be if their first experience was " hi and welcome, I like the idea of behind this shot and I can see the potential in the composition, unfortunately it does seem a bit dark so next time you might want try (whatever) , also its looking a bit overcooked from the post processing, next time may be go a bit easier on the XYZ slider or try (this techinque) ..." that leads to most people (sensitive little flowers and fight trolls excepted) going away both knowing how to improve and thinking 'wow what a great place'

Basic management technique I learned doing a Franklin Quest Course many years ago, called the One Minute Manager. It was bascially giving the praise first and the improvements requirded secondly.

For me, you have summed up the whole issue, which is the delivery of the crit. It is going to be a difficult excercise, but with a little thought before pressing the enter button it can be done by all members. Everyone seems to want too help each other on here IMO and I have had great advice with my technique and composition to improve my bird photography. I can see why people get upset by the crit, but if we all give a bit more thought to the delivery, it will help this section no doubt.