Critique : What do we want here?

[gramps]

Marvellous

You got the message - that's what I am trying to illustrate

One of us has got the message.

 

[dean messenger]

not naming names as simply not my place to do so by lowering myself to there level. but one particular person seems to make it a habit of jumping on my posts with nothing but negative comments that are generally unrelated or use it as an excuse to have a dig.
example here someone in beginner setcion was asking about free software for editing.
a link had came to me via email saying that adobe were offering CS2 free ( checked it out and adobe list CS 2 WITh a legit serial code ) so i posted it.
next thing mr abuser pops up with this little nugget

Of course if your scruples are such that you regard it as a freebie then I guess adobe must have allowed for that
now it may not seem much but as this person is constistantly posting little person digs ( ie the scruples )
and then they follow up with
so for all the willy waiving, name calling, shirt tearing and persecution complex accusations ( grow up, stop being so f*****g silly) you are wrong. Adobe say you're wrong. Its not pedantic either. You are wrong no matter how often you say it differently. Deal with it. And maybe advising people to steal software isn't the best either. Adobe have always been very clear about this

rather than actually state that the download was for cs users who have maybe done a clean install or an upgrade or downgrade ( which is never actually stated on the adobe site ) instead they as per usual go in for yet another personal attack.

quite frankly if i met them in person id most likely end up gladly wrapping my manfrotto around the neck , but as the tedious keyboard warrior that they are it just gets to the point of wondering why i bother .

 

[admirable]

do you know what happened on the Osprey thread?

Yes

I know as much as anyone ……. the images were not good, I saw them, reasonable comments were made to the OP, very reasonable IMHO and also helpful

In your opinion

He flipped

I'm not surprised

He has refused to substantiate his claim that 5 members sent him abusive PM's.

He doesn't have to, they're private

He deleted his images from the thread and Flickr

Are you surprised?

He indicated his level of skill and the fact that he was paid for work that he did.

I fail to see what that has to do with the poor critique on his images

He was abusive - no one on the thread was

What about the 5 PM's?

Again a lack of understanding before making a judgement …..

Well you could try and see it from the other side before you make your judgement

 

[FourRingCircus]

not naming names as simply not my place to do so by lowering myself to there level

Was intruiged, so a simple search for 'scruples' resulted in the answer. Not a member I've come across, but I would have to agree, the tone used seems overly harsh for the point that was being made. However, it's not my place to preside in judgement over the case. I see there was involvement by a mod, but we all ought to remember that the mods have lives too and they can do without that sort of nonsense.

I have been around long enough to know that you are likely to get cc when posting here, how ever I am not sure that it is clear that this is a cc section, it only states "photo genre discussion and critique" perhaps a banner across the top of the bird section "only post here if you want critique" or perhaps critique should not be given unless specially asked for, either by the prefix or within the thread ?

I think this hits the nail on the head. I am guilty of only using the 'bird' part of the forum and I've never really looked at the Captive or Wild & Free areas. I'm happy for critique whether I ask for it or not. To me, that's the whole point of this forum. However, occasionally I will post up something just for the sake of interest (eg a rarity).

Perhaps what we should be asking the mods for is a split in the Bird forum - one for General Interest and one explicitly for Critique. Either that, or we work with what's there just now and post general stuff in Wild and Free and only post in Birds for critique. As RKC says, it ought to be made clearer that the bird section is only for critique and this could avoid many of the pitfalls.:nailbiting:

 

[gramps]

Perhaps what we should be asking the mods for is a split in the Bird forum - one for General Interest and one explicitly for Critique.

I don't think that would address the problem at all, it isn't generally the receiving of considered critique that causes a problem, it's the direct verbal abuse that needs sorting.

 

[Cobra]

of which one aas reported to admins and totally ignored.. why.. because they are a forum spammer and buddy buddy with a few .

We get dozens of RTM's most days, all are read, not all are acted on, some are acted on behind the scenes and the reporter, doesn't always know any action has been taken.
There are no favourites here, we have 3 admin & 9 mods.
All serious sanctions ( such as bans or long term suspensions) are thoroughly discussed and put to the vote.
Anyone that happens to be friends with said person, declares their "interest" and doesn't vote.
I think the system is as fair as it can be.

Yes Rich there was a hell of a lot of it ,I got emails nasty guest entries on my website I had to delete

@u8myufo Rich, I can vouch for that I read the Pm's & emails.
And we, the staff saw the witch hunt developing over time, eventually more than one person earned themselves a permanent ban over that and other site behaviour.

 

[BillN_33]

Yes



In your opinion



I'm not surprised



He doesn't have to, they're private



Are you surprised?



I fail to see what that has to do with the poor critique on his images



What about the 5 PM's?



Well you could try and see it from the other side before you make your judgement

I did not make any judgement - you made the judgement in your posting

all I did was to offer what I thought were helpful comments - read the thread

this thread is getting so complicated

 

[admirable]

Again a lack of understanding before making a judgement …..

You mean this was directed at me? I have a lack of understanding?

 

[BillN_33]

Again a lack of understanding before making a judgement …..

You mean this was directed at me? I have a lack of understanding?

of course it was, it was my opinion after reading what you said, I answered your posting ......... do you want me to say "great shot"

No-one was abusive to him on the thread

 

[admirable]

You've lost me, what posting?

 

[BillN_33]

You've lost me, what posting?

I must have replied to a posting you made ......... surely?

did I mean you or the Osprey man?

anyway choose another example you will have a stronger case ..... the Osprey one is not what some are complaining about

 

[FourRingCircus]

This is tedious with your he said / she said nonsense. Please give it a rest and remember that there are others reading here.

admirable - you have made it plain that you thought both myself and Bill were harsh. However, I can't recall if you actually saw the photos and it would also be fair to say that if you did, then you said nothing. Perhaps that's how it should stay?

 

[admirable]

It must be post No 135..................how do I have a lack of understanding? Understanding what?

 

[BillN_33]

It must be post No 135..................how do I have a lack of understanding? Understanding what?

I cannot be bothered to go back Jim, I need the next few hours to go through my Robin images ........ and send a few PM's to Den, (Dennis) about his sawdust issue

 

[den]

We get dozens of RTM's most days, all are read, not all are acted on, some are acted on behind the scenes and the reporter, doesn't always know any action has been taken.
There are no favourites here, we have 3 admin & 9 mods.
All serious sanctions ( such as bans or long term suspensions) are thoroughly discussed and put to the vote.
Anyone that happens to be friends with said person, declares their "interest" and doesn't vote.
I think the system is as fair as it can be.


@u8myufo Rich, I can vouch for that I read the Pm's & emails.
And we, the staff saw the witch hunt developing over time, eventually more than one person earned themselves a permanent ban over that and other site behaviour.

I would like to add to this .when i was having lots of trouble Marcel and the team were (behind the scenes) very suportive and angry that i was recieving abusive texts emails and PMs.....it was my decission to keep the PMs private and as i said it was all sorted in the end without having to resort to drastic measures

 

[admirable]

This is tedious with your he said / she said nonsense. Please give it a rest and remember that there are others reading here.

admirable - you have made it plain that you thought both myself and Bill were harsh. However, I can't recall if you actually saw the photos and it would also be fair to say that if you did, then you said nothing. Perhaps that's how it should stay?

I never said Bill was harsh, in fact I never even mentioned his name....................I said you were harsh.
That Osprey thread went downhill within the first couple of posts, "ruined by the framing" ruined was a bit strong.
What was the point of posting the image apart from willie waving? We all know what a portrait crop is so there was no need to mention the SWT usage.................what did that have to do with the critique?...... Zilch
If you had mentioned the rule of thirds that would have been fine but you didn't. The whole tone of your post was negative, there are ways of getting your thoughts across without destroying confidence, stating 3 out of the 8 images are "nothing special" is not critique! You seem to think that crit is all about picking everything wrong with an image and firing it back to them, well it's not.
I'm not condoning the removal of the images on that thread or any other and only the Mods can tell if 5 PM's were in fact received but perhaps you should take a look at your critique style and start with the positives next time.

FWIW I did see them

 

[Marc]

only the Mods can tell if 5 PM's were in fact received

No, we can't.

 

[u8myufo]

Yes Rich there was a hell of a lot of it ,I got emails nasty guest entries on my website I had to delete ,the result of mouse gate led to members sending me text messages and just generally being horrible three members have since been banned and all three were involved ,one sent me a few PMs were I seeked police advice ,you wouldn't believe the text messages I was getting from one certain member ,all this while a few members thought it was funny and big to get clever about the mice I was using to bait one of my owl sites and you were one of them ,you even used it on a thread were it was called show us yours were I had a picture of my wife and you posted a naughty comment regarding a mouse ,cobra deleted it ,any chance or opportunity for a dig were my owls were concerned and the usual crew were at me,i like a good laugh but behind the scenes you don't know nothing ,Marcel offered me the chance to take this further with the PM /text etc at the time but I chose not to and I did tell him my reason ,so the Admin were aware but accepted my decision luckily it all got sorted so when it starts happening again with sly remarks about owl baiting I just get a bit p***ed off with it ,you see if you get it once every so often that's fine but I was getting more than my fair share of it ,and I still do but I just get on with it now as I believe in karma ,what you give is what you get returned,

I think we need to look at things a little bit closer Den.I remember making a comment but I am pretty sure it was not an attack on your wife, more of a high level of sarcasm on my part.I will tell you how I see it though as you like to bring things out in the open.All these new members that come along only see one side of things.Way before your little owl threads were started I recieved a couple of pm`s from you with regards to some constructive C&C I gave on one or a couple of your shots at the time,those PM`s were in fact uncalled for, and you did apologise. At the time I made it clear to the Mods I did not want any further action taken on the matter.You have mentioned on more than one occasion on here how you have made a handful of friends from TP, and you are respected as a photographer by many people including a couple of professionals.A pity you are not so quick to point out that you have also p***ed a lot of people off out there on the internet,and it is not just restricted to this forum.Like I have said in the past,I do not dislike you as I have never met you, and any threats you have recieved is bang out of order,that I agree on.

Let me take you to this thread and your second reply.First thing I notice is that you were eager to tell me I PP my shots to death,that`s an opinion I can accept from yourself or anybody.However that comment would have been best suited if I had done an edit of your image,or at the very least told me that on one of my PP`d to death pictures I have posted in the past,you could have had an equal opportunity to explain to myself and others in full how I should have rectified it and also done an edit to prove it could be done,for all your skills that is something I have yet to see you do in any thread. You have known me long enough,my edit box never gets unchecked.You also have to mention about the fact I have shown up on TP and there appears to be a pattern forming,again not really relevant to your picture.Whilst talking of patterns forming let me say this,on many occasions in the past I have seen a pattern forming Den, and it goes something like this.Somebody will post a picture up of a of a KF,Puffin or perhaps a Swallow in flight for example,let`s say it`s an average shot with room for improvement.I could bet a weeks wages that you will follow afterwards (normaly within a day) with a similar picture but obviously looking better due to your experience,I would ask wtf is that all about, but one thing I am not Den is f*****g stupid You may think I have a personal hang up about it,you could not be any further from the truth,it just sticks out like a sore thumb.Me? I ignore it,but I can quite easily see how your attitude and motivations wind a lot of people up,to the point where it spiralled out of control and resulted in the flack you took.For whatever reason you are also very selective of whom you take any negative crit from,you have mentioned in the past about certain members siding with others,yet you are no diferent to the rest of us.You respond in a civil manner when you have recieved negative crit from some, yet you put a wall of defence up with others that for whatever reason you dislike.

By your own admission this week you state that you are trying not to take things too much on a personal level.That Den has been the root cause of a lot of your problems,as for the rest of the problems regarding other threads,to be honest I have not even looked at them.

 

[den]

Read it ....lets move on ,as i have no more to say on the matter with you Rich ,as i have said before to you and i will say it one here publicly not via PM my respect for you was lost a long time ago.....this now stops this thread ,being either aimed at myself or yourself and we can move on.

 

[FourRingCircus]

The whole tone of your post was negative

Hello Gary. First of all, I hope you enjoyed your trip up north. Your pics are perfectly reasonable, but I think you need to take a serious look at how you frame some of them. I also think that the copyright info at the bottom in bold capitals is an issue which possibly affects how you are framing the shot in PP.

#5 - #8 - I see you've had a morning with Gordon!! Not sure which camera/lens you are using, but #6 is probably the pic of the bunch.

Overall, a nice set and I'm sure it was a good week - which is just as important.

Yup! All negative....... So it's me you have a problem with Jim? Why didn't you say so in the first place?

The whole point of posting the picture was becasue it's a hell of a lot easier to explain in pictures than in words. Call that 'willie waving' if you wish, but it certainly wasn't an attempt at one-upmanship from this end. It's not one my best osprey pics, but it was a perfect example of what can be done from that location. Also, 'ruined by the framing' to me means that there's still a reasonable shot there. I didn't say it was ruined by crap equipment or a poor photographer. Get a grip man! You're starting to come across as someone who expects everybody to wrap themselves and their words in cotton wool. Rule of thirds? I'm sorry, I'm a hobby photographer, not an expert. Would you care to enlighten me what that is please? While you are at it, since you seem to be one of the few who actually saw the shots, can you tell us all why you didn't chip in with your wonderful critique and praise, including this 'rule of thirds' bit. Apparently he was a pro photographer, so I'm sure he would have been interested in that from you.

My critique style is open for debate and you are not the arbiter of that. If you don't like it, feel free to add your's in there too on any appropriate thread.

But, with the greatest respect I can muster, don't sit on the sidelines allowing things to fester in your own mind and then start firing back when you are clearly not prepared to put your money where your mouth is in the first place.

 

[BillN_33]

can I just point out that I think that I was the first to mention WILLIE WAVING so I have the copyright ...... I think that it was in a conversation with Den, (Dennis)

I am quite happy to give my permission for liberal waving providing I receive the appropriate request by PM in advance

 

[admirable]

No, we can't.

Hmmm apologies, must be the new software, as I remember you could tell if a PM was sent but could not see the contents.

 

[admirable]

Hobby photographer that doesn't know the 'rule of thirds' giving crit................if only I'd known.

Off to make a stick for a robin

 

[u8myufo]

how do I have a lack of understanding? Understanding what?

Understanding that the poor guy with only two post counts was looking for ways to improve see post #2

 

[FourRingCircus]

Rule of thirds........ Never heard of it...... Never read a photogrpahy book in my life....... Don't know anything about Osprey's either...... Never seen one......

 

[admirable]

Understanding that the poor guy with only two post counts was looking for ways to improve see post #2

thanks

 

[FourRingCircus]

Perhaps, to keep admirable happy I should have just said

"It's an Osprey"?

 

[Marc]

Hmmm apologies, must be the new software, as I remember you could tell if a PM was sent but could not see the contents.

Couldn't do it on the old software either.

 

[Byker28i]

Hobby photographer that doesn't know the 'rule of thirds' giving crit................if only I'd known.

Off to make a stick for a robin

Here have mine

 

[admirable]

Here have mine

Like the 2nd one

 

[Byker28i]

rather than actually state that the download was for cs users who have maybe done a clean install or an upgrade or downgrade ( which is never actually stated on the adobe site ) instead they as per usual go in for yet another personal attack..

With respect - it is pointed out on the Adobe site - the site specifically says:

Read before you download a CS2 product
Adobe has disabled the activation server for CS2 products, including Acrobat 7, because of a technical issue. These products were released more than seven years ago and do not run on many modern operating systems; Adobe no longer supports them.

Adobe strongly advises against running unsupported and outdated software. Only customers who legitimately purchased CS2 or Acrobat 7 and need to maintain their current use of these products may use the serial numbers provided during the download.



Whilst you complain about a certain user, from an outsider it now seems to be both ways

 

[dean messenger]

Here have mine

sorry but unacceptable. no snow. no mistletoe. no choir singing hark the herald angels. no tinsel, red berries, holly , baubles and not a christmas tree in sight... must do better next time.
other than that its a splendid little chap ( or chapess never can tell if its a robin or robyn! )

 

[dean messenger]

With respect - it is pointed out on the Adobe site - the site specifically says:

Read before you download a CS2 product
Adobe has disabled the activation server for CS2 products, including Acrobat 7, because of a technical issue. These products were released more than seven years ago and do not run on many modern operating systems; Adobe no longer supports them.

Adobe strongly advises against running unsupported and outdated software. Only customers who legitimately purchased CS2 or Acrobat 7 and need to maintain their current use of these products may use the serial numbers provided during the download.



Whilst you complain about a certain user, from an outsider it now seems to be both ways

and why then did the troll not state that , rather than resort to abuse.... and that is EXACTLY the point i am making.
some people clearly find it easier to throw out insults rather than actually reply in a positive and useful manner.
and i never named the other person nor have i personally insulted them.. KEY difference there i think between my post which was trying to help someone out and there post which was just a derogatory pointless attack.
and sorry but if you cant see that then this forum has no chance.

 

[BillN_33]

can I just point out that I think that I was the first to mention WILLIE WAVING so I have the copyright ...... I think that it was in a conversation with Den, (Dennis)

I am quite happy to give my permission for liberal waving providing I receive the appropriate request by PM in advance

should I RTM the young lady who has just sent me a PM ....... she forgot to attach an image of herself in the bath ........ really disappointed

 

[BillN_33]

and why then did the troll not state that , rather than resort to abuse.... and that is EXACTLY the point i am making.
some people clearly find it easier to throw out insults rather than actually reply in a positive and useful manner.
and i never named the other person nor have i personally insulted them.. KEY difference there i think between my post which was trying to help someone out and there post which was just a derogatory pointless attack.
and sorry but if you cant see that then this forum has no chance.

you will always get these on BLOODY forums, they are not BLOODY important, they are BLOODY normal ........... they don't do any harm, do they?

I have come to see them as the reverse ...... quite funny

 

[Byker28i]

Again with respect Dean, from some of the threads, such as your experiment thread, if you don't like what people say then you also can be a bit abrasive, even if they are trying to point out the bit where you are wrong. Even the above, where you say it isnt stated on the website when it plainly is.

Anyhow sun's out, my car is finally ready, so I'm off to collect

 

[BillN_33]

Again with respect Dean, from some of the threads, such as your experiment thread, if you don't like what people say then you also can be a bit abrasive, even if they are trying to point out the bit where you are wrong. Even the above, where you say it isnt stated on the website when it plainly is.

Anyhow sun's out, my car is finally ready, so I'm off to collect

no idea what you are taking about if it is an answer to me ....... I have never discussed CS2 with Dean, in fact I don't think I have ever commented on any of his threads or images ........ I have no idea what CS2 is ......... I use PS

Can you clarify and link the thread

 

[drexyl]

Just had a quick look through here,
never seen the osprey shots & I've never read all posts.
but I don't know where you guys get your energy from

 

[gary43]

Have been too busy at work and home to properly follow this discussion but, to intervene and to answer the Exam Question set, I would like: a. CONSTRUCTIVE criticism, and; b. ocassional ego-massaging should I ever be lucky enough to take a decent image any time soon.

Will bow out now and leave this thread to others to possibly bicker on-and-on....

I do though think it is about time the last couple of hundred posts were summarised and the original post answered. The arguements here are getting a bit circular.

 

[dean messenger]

Again with respect Dean, from some of the threads, such as your experiment thread, if you don't like what people say then you also can be a bit abrasive, even if they are trying to point out the bit where you are wrong. Even the above, where you say it isnt stated on the website when it plainly is.

Anyhow sun's out, my car is finally ready, so I'm off to collect

being abrasive is one thing. but as i have said which seems to be going over the head, personal attacks and insults are really uncalled for.. its not rocket science.
yeah im abrasive at times, i speak my mind. but i'll only get personal on someone if they decide to attack me first and there really is no excuse for it.

unless is Rich of course then i'll just call him a C*** and he'll know fully why from POTV live chat ( and yes thats in full on humour mode as a bit of an inside ( or outside ) joke