Whether or not I was right to describe out voters as terminally stupid, my guess is that a lot of them will very soon regret their decision.
I'm not going to be harsh about you calling leave voters stupid, if the result was the other way round (me being a leave voter) it is the sort of comment I would have made in reverse out of frustration that others did not share my point of view on the subject, it's part of being a winner in my opinion to be a bad loser!
The crux of the matter, not that it has been discussed particularly well between the propaganda of both campaigns, is that no one can predict the alternate futures before voting. Nor after voting and living out one course of action can we go back and live out the other future to see if it would have been better.
One thing for me that I was clear on with myself before voting, and since is that I was not voting to destroy our economy for any emotional and possibly irrational reasons. I genuinely believe that our economy is better off long term out of the EU. The option of leaving the EU did give a very unclear future not without risk, although there are some good compelling rough plans out there how to proceed and succeed.
The option of staying in the EU though, and I can't stress this enough to many people who think their lives have been ruined by the 'racist' out voters, is not a vote for things to stay the same. Whilst right now we may be able to buy imported camera equipment for 'x', and we have sky tv and holidays to Spain and feel safe in thinking voting remain was voting for these things to carry on forever it was simply not the case. Again, no one is able to predict either future but Brussels, and common sense gave us some clues what a 'remain' future may have looked like.
From a democratic point of view our ability as free people of the 21st century world have been eroded. Unelected President Juncker (talking of the Greek situation but clearly showing his attitude) states; "there can be no democratic choice against the european treaties." The more your read up on the EU the more you get a foreboding sense that it is not a United States of Europe, but a European Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. 10,000 bureaucrats earning more than David Cameron (was). Rejected, by their own people voting them out, heads of state with jobs for life, no accountability and almost absolute power. The thing we know about power is that it corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Somebody mentioned earlier in the thread, it may have been you Garry, that we will now get the government that we deserve. Incidentally this was a reason I voted out. By remaining we would end up with Brussels ruling us almost exclusively within 10-20 years and we would have no power at all to change that. David Cameron's 2 year re-negotiations that led to completely nothing proved they will not listen, or budge. They are right, our elected Prime Minister is wrong and the thoughts of the human beings, the people within a nation state do not even bear thinking about. The issue with Brussels taking more and more control and dictating more of our rules and laws is twofold, one we can do nothing to change it and second our quality of politician at home actually gets worse. With the real power lying in Brussels UK governments have been, and would have been able to blame the EU for their own failings. Without any real responsibility of their own more time is spent on feathering their own nests and lining themselves up for future jobs in the EU. The advantage of leaving from a democratic point of view can't be understated. As a people we will retain the ability to vote in, and crucially vote out our law makers. The more democratic power the people have, the truer to their word politicians will have to be, especially if they know we will exercise the right to remove them. Also I believe that our politicians with a real job to do and actual responsibility will over time garnish a better quality of politician. It may take time, but quality leaders will step up to the plate out of necessity and less time will be spent on planning duck ponds with tax payers money and more time on doing what we the people employ them to do. (Which if they do well I actually think they should be paid more but that is another story)
From a financial point of view, still looking at the remain future within the EU, things will not stay the same here either. A question I asked myself, and friends whilst making my mind up was this. For what problem is the EU a solution? Also if I was voting to join it or stay out, rather than leave or stay in, would I think differently? Perhaps others reading this know should reflect on those questions. Not just looking at it subjectively, but objectively for me as a business model it is doomed to fail. Regarding our own fiscal obligations with only Germany contributing more and being a larger economy than us, and no other rich countries left to join, the only additional countries to join would be poorer. The money would only flow one way, and the people looking to better themselves the opposite way. This costs us multiple times, firstly as part of a socialist experiment that we did not sign up for the infrastructure of joining countries will be brought up to a higher standard at our cost. Then the migrants travelling to the UK use our infrastructure, free at point of use (but not free!) health service, claim benefits, give our work shy an excuse not to fill jobs so we also have to dole them (system also at fault) and send the money home for families to spend in native countries outside of the UK economy. These are multiple drains on the UK and the money does not come out of thin air, our taxes are paying for it. We would likely be taxed further in future to pay for increased EU assimilation of smaller countries. Bail outs, have cost us dearly in the past, supposedly we won't be part of in the future but imagine what will happen when Italy, or possibly France need help. It would break us, and supposing this is in 15 years time and we are closer tied to the EU perhaps forced into the euro even. The pain then would be a lot worse than the mickey mouse money games stock brokers are playing with the pound at the moment. Potentially I felt if we were going to have a recession, I would rather have a small one now, and bounce back from it in the right position to go forward and succeed as a country as opposed to having a massive one when the house of cards all falls down.
So I personally don't regret my decision for voting leave. Do any remain voters who had envisaged the EU carrying on as a utopian vision and had only heard Osborne's dark threats about leave now think differently? Maybe they will when they see how the EU acts in the coming months, I am sure they will try and take punitive spiteful measures against us as a deterrent to any other naughty children. However, what has always been a constant in my decision making is common sense. I never understood the worry about trade. The day we leave the EU not only will they lose us as a cash cow (their second biggest) but we instantly become their single biggest export market for goods. A rich nation of 65 million consumers spending £100 billion a year with EU countries where in return they only spend £10 billion. Can they afford to lose that business. Of course not, that wouldn't just be cutting of your nose to spite your face, that would be self destructive madness. I never understood the deal anyway. In my experience if I was buying 10 times as much goods/services from what someone else was buying from me I would expect him to give me the backhander, not the other way round! Yet we were best customer of the EU and had to pay for the privilege! That is not how business works. Add into the deal being forced to accept immigration, and have our laws made with no recourse from Brussels, and being hamstrung at dealing with the rest of the world and I think staying in was the risk.
In conclusion I am not arguing with you, merely trying to show the rambling mind of a leave voter. Please take it as such and I am happy to answer any questions. Going forward this referendum has clearly divided the people fairly evenly, I personally do not think Boris is the right choice for PM. The reasons being we need to unite as a country to succeed for all our sakes (and not get into a blame game of I told you so) and really Boris as a leader of a remain campaign is going to be adding salt to the wound of the remain voters. I am thinking someone like David Davis, or Liam Fox would be an excellent PM to take us out. It needs to be a 'Brexit' government, but it also needs to be a good government, there is still the full time job of running a country. Boris would constantly being called to account for things he said in the the campaign, just like Cameron would have been and perhaps Osborne will be. Davis or Fox is less about the ego and more about getting on with things I feel. Also, in negotiating I think a slightly less prominent figure than Boris would hold less resentment with the Europeans. Perhaps the best person for that job, and potential future foreign secretary in my opinion is Dan Hannan, close and respectful to the europeans but a voice of reason and calm for the nation. Has understanding of the past and a vision of the future but is clearly very British at heart and would not concede too much...
Essay over!
, though is it stupid not to vote? I can understand why people voted to leave, think they were wrong but can understand and they were a lot braver/or stupid than me.
