At last London is taking dirty diesel seriously

nilagin said:
It will still produce high levels of NOx unless it's Euro 6.
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Last produced in 2002, so not Euro 6, Tailpipe NOx = engine out, no particulate trap and perhaps an old oxidation catalyst though probably not. Unlikely to be common rail injection, so particulates will be pretty high too. Basically a good example of what the legislators are trying to get off the road.
 
For those that need the power why not buy a large engined petrol car and convert to LPG. Solves the problem of fuel efficiency even though it would be less miles to the gallon, LPG is at least half the cost of other fuels. Whats the emissions like with LPG?
 
jakeblu said:
For those that need the power why not buy a large engined petrol car and convert to LPG. Solves the problem of fuel efficiency even though it would be less miles to the gallon, LPG is at least half the cost of other fuels. Whats the emissions like with LPG?
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LPG can be good, but one of the reasons it's cheap is because there is less duty and tax on it. If everyone switched over to LPG, there wouldn't be enough of it, plus it's not so convenient to transport, store and dispense as diesel and gasoline.
 
GeeJay57 said:
Last produced in 2002, so not Euro 6, Tailpipe NOx = engine out, no particulate trap and perhaps an old oxidation catalyst though probably not. Unlikely to be common rail injection, so particulates will be pretty high too. Basically a good example of what the legislators are trying to get off the road.
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It's still easy to make the argument that my car running on used vegetable oil is FAR better for the environment than any petrol or diesel car. It's naive to think any of this has anything to do with protecting the environment. It's all about money
 
GeeJay57 said:
LPG can be good, but one of the reasons it's cheap is because there is less duty and tax on it. If everyone switched over to LPG, there wouldn't be enough of it, plus it's not so convenient to transport, store and dispense as diesel and gasoline.
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Thanks for that Glenn. I converted my old petrol motorhome a few years back and it made it so much cheaper to run, even taking into account the conversion costs. Looking to get a caravan later this year and the idea was to get a decent diesel to tow it, maybe an xtrail or freelander but seeing as I won't be able to afford one that 2014 or younger I might have to rethink that.
 
I have a 2012 diesel. I was already planning to sell it towards the end of the year/beginning of next anyway and was already planning on a move back to a petrol engine. I'm wondering if in that time I am likely to see a substantial drop in value of my car and an increase in value of petrol engine cars that might make it more sense to make the change sooner rather than later.
 
bass_junkie83 said:
I have a 2012 diesel. I was already planning to sell it towards the end of the year/beginning of next anyway and was already planning on a move back to a petrol engine. I'm wondering if in that time I am likely to see a substantial drop in value of my car and an increase in value of petrol engine cars that might make it more sense to make the change sooner rather than later.
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Well, I am on the lookout for a car and because of this new change I am now only looking at petrol cars so guess many others will be dismissing diesels too so it will affect interest in the car.
 
amtaylor said:
It's still easy to make the argument that my car running on used vegetable oil is FAR better for the environment than any petrol or diesel car. It's naive to think any of this has anything to do with protecting the environment. It's all about money
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It's not better for the environment though, because the nox emissions will be exactly the same as running it on diesel.
 
nilagin said:
It's not better for the environment though, because the nox emissions will be exactly the same as running it on diesel.
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And how much drilling is done for my oil? And transported by big grotty tankers than have been known to cause catastrophe? And transported miles overland..... ? And other emissions are definitely lower. And I'm recycling. Was that even a serious statement?
 
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amtaylor said:
And how much drilling is done for my oil? And transported by big grotty tankers than have been known to cause catastrophe? And transported miles overland..... ? And other emissions are definitely lower. And I'm recycling. Was that even a serious statement?
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Production and transportation of vegetable oil causes emissions as well. All you are doing is saving yourself money, you're misguided if you think it's saving the planet. Even current diesel is a blend of biodiesel and the higher content biodiesel has been known to mess up car fuel systems, I dread to think what running 100% veg oil is doing.
 
nilagin said:
Production and transportation of vegetable oil causes emissions as well. All you are doing is saving yourself money, you're misguided if you think it's saving the planet. Even current diesel is a blend of biodiesel and the higher content biodiesel has been known to mess up car fuel systems, I dread to think what running 100% veg oil is doing.
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I don't think I'm saving the planet, I made a logical line of reasoning that overall it causes less harm to the environment than other cars. I'm sure you can see the point and are just being contrary. There is a big difference between creating and transporting diesel and the production of vegetable oil. And even if there wasn't I am using a waste product and recycling it. It is not being produced as fuel, I am using it after it is no longer fit for the purpose it was made for. Older engines with a Bosch fuel pump can run very happily on veg oil. I've ran mine for about 30,000 miles but thank you for your concern.
 
Diesel is going to be about for decades. There are too many diesel vehicles on the road for it to be any different. Rumours of scrapage schemes are focusing on means-tested payments to drivers of the oldest vehicles in the worst affected areas. The suggestions I've seen in the papers are hinting at ten year old vehicles (which will be Euro4 and older) owned by households earning less than 60% of the median income and living in inner city areas.

I mentioned the German system earlier in the thread,one big advantage this has is awareness of your own emissions. The shield in the windscreen is colour coded and has a big number on it that states the Euro rating of the vehicle.


As to vegetable oil:
  • Production/transportation costs can be considered "paid" by the first user (the cook), the additional environmental impact of collecting and preparing it for use as a vehicle fuel is minimal compared to conventional diesel.
  • Modern diesels can have problems with vegetable oils but older diesels have far fewer problems. But older diesels are less efficient, produce more emissions, and biodiesels produce higher NOx emissions than oil-derived diesels.
Overall result,"it's complicated". If you want to do something for the environment drive less, walk/cycle more, use public transport.
 
amtaylor said:
I don't think I'm saving the planet, I made a logical line of reasoning that overall it causes less harm to the environment than other cars. I'm sure you can see the point and are just being contrary. There is a big difference between creating and transporting diesel and the production of vegetable oil. And even if there wasn't I am using a waste product and recycling it. It is not being produced as fuel, I am using it after it is no longer fit for the purpose it was made for. Older engines with a Bosch fuel pump can run very happily on veg oil. I've ran mine for about 30,000 miles but thank you for your concern.
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Waste vegetable oil doesn't burn as well as diesel or biodiesel. So you are achieving less power so you are having to use more fuel than you would with diesel which increases emissions. During winter the oil will crystalize, on one hand it is recommended to change the fuel filter to one with larger microns or else the filter becomes clogged and engine won't run because the fuel can't get through, but the original filter with smaller microns is necessary for stopping large particles getting through to the injectors which would get clogged and need replacing. That is aside from the green sludge that builds up in the pipes found to build up in fuel pipes as well as the injectors.
 
Alastair said:
Diesel is going to be about for decades. There are too many diesel vehicles on the road for it to be any different. Rumours of scrapage schemes are focusing on means-tested payments to drivers of the oldest vehicles in the worst affected areas. The suggestions I've seen in the papers are hinting at ten year old vehicles (which will be Euro4 and older) owned by households earning less than 60% of the median income and living in inner city areas.

I mentioned the German system earlier in the thread,one big advantage this has is awareness of your own emissions. The shield in the windscreen is colour coded and has a big number on it that states the Euro rating of the vehicle.


As to vegetable oil:
  • Production/transportation costs can be considered "paid" by the first user (the cook), the additional environmental impact of collecting and preparing it for use as a vehicle fuel is minimal compared to conventional diesel.
  • Modern diesels can have problems with vegetable oils but older diesels have far fewer problems. But older diesels are less efficient, produce more emissions, and biodiesels produce higher NOx emissions than oil-derived diesels.
Overall result,"it's complicated". If you want to do something for the environment drive less, walk/cycle more, use public transport.
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I travel at least 50 miles a week on foot and cycle more than that.
 
There are some scientific studies that show WVO having lower NOx emissions too especially if not preheated (mine isn't) and in the winter I just add 5-10% unleaded to keep things running smoothly. So it's not even clear cut the emissions are the same anyhoos
 
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The only reasons for using used vegetable oil (UVO) as a fuel are a) low cost (no fuel duty paid, its a waste material so doesn't command a premium price) and b) lower nett CO2 emissions as it is nominally a renewable material (as long as it remains a minority fuel commodity, there isn't enough of it to even scratch the surface of overall diesel supply).

Using UVO in an old indirect injection Diesel engine does nothing at all to improve local air quality and in fact makes it worse. If not esterified to turn it into bio-diesel, then it is not a good material to have in the fuel system and can cause compatibility issues with elastomers, iand the engine oil (leading to poor engine cleanliness). Worst case for engine oil is it can turn into a gel. I've seen camboxes that have been completely clogged with sludge following operation on UVO. It is also pretty much incompatible with modern injections systems and if for example comes from a chippy, is likely to contain high levels of salt and other contaminants that in my experience has be woefully outside the EN-590 limits. UVO also has poor cold-weather properties.

Clearly it can be used, but at best it can only be described as a poor quality substitute for properly produced and formulated diesel.
 
amtaylor said:
There are some scientific studies that show WVO having lower NOx emissions too especially if not preheated (mine isn't) and in the winter I just add 5-10% unleaded to keep things running smoothly. So it's not even clear cut the emissions are the same anyhoos
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Adding unleaded gasoline to diesel is very bad practice as the headspace in the tank can then contain volatile hydrocarbons above the lower explosive limit (LEL). Not recommended at all.

In a tank of gasoline, the headspace HC level is above the UEL and is therefore low risk.
 
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GeeJay57 said:
Adding unleaded gasoline to diesel is very bad practice as the headspace in the tank can then contain volatile hydrocarbons above the lower explosive limit (LEL). Not recommended at all.

In a tank of gasoline, the headspace HC level is above the UEL and is therefore low risk.
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And yet it's been done for decades in the winter
 
Well as it was my friend who's a mechanic who advised me to do it and check all the sites that give info and advice on running cars on WVO, they say a similar thing. I think I will go with them. Anyone ever hear of a diesel car exploding because it had a bit of unleaded in it. It wasn't uncommon years ago to add up to half a tank in the winter. I'm pretty sure there would be lots an abundance of evidence if it was so dangerous
 
amtaylor said:
And yet it's been done for decades in the winter
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Before the day's of "winter additives" it was 1 gallon of 4* to 45L of diesel, in the trucks.
stopped the diesel from sludging up(y)

nilagin said:
ust because it's been done for decades it doesn't mean it's safe and should be continued.
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Does that mean I have to quit throwing a diesel soaked burning rag under the sump of a truck to thin the oil out and warm it up a little too?
DAMN!
 
Cobra said:
Before the day's of "winter additives" it was 1 gallon of 4* to 45L of diesel, in the trucks.
stopped the diesel from sludging up(y)


Does that mean I have to quit throwing a diesel soaked burning rag under the sump of a truck to thin the oil out and warm it up a little too?
DAMN!
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You can continue if you like.(y) But anti waxing agents are added to diesel in winter.
 
Cobra said:
Before the day's of "winter additives" it was 1 gallon of 4* to 45L of diesel, in the trucks.
stopped the diesel from sludging up(y)
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Wouldn't do a modern direct injection engine much good.
 
nilagin said:
You can continue if you like.(y) But anti waxing agents are added to diesel in winter.
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As abve, They weren't even heard of when I was driving trucks. :p
 
cambsno said:
Didn't appear to do any short term damage when I put £25 of unleaded into a diesel tank the other year!!!:p
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Less than 5 gallons just once, you will likely get away with it. But lift pumps and injectors require the lubrication properties of diesel fuel to function properly. If you kept putting £25 of unleaded in with your diesel, you can expect some very expensive fuel system failures.
 
nilagin said:
Less than 5 gallons just once, you will likely get away with it. But lift pumps and injectors require the lubrication properties of diesel fuel to function properly. If you kept putting £25 of unleaded in with your diesel, you can expect some very expensive fuel system failures.
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Indeed. Diesel fuel injection systems (especially modern systems) can become damaged pretty quickly. When Class 1 ultra low sulphur diesel (ULSD) was first introduced, the lubricity became severely reduced. Nobody really knows exactly why that is BTW. Anyway, there were injection pumps failing all over the place until the oil companies realised that lubricity additives needed to be included in the formulation.

Gasoline isn't a very good lubricant, so as you say lift pumps and injectors used in common-rail systems, due to the very tight internal running clearances needed to produce fuel pressures in excess of 2,000 bar or 30,000 psi, are very vulnerable to catastrophic failure if not operated on EN-590 compliant diesel.
 
I am in Spain at the moment and 90% of the vehicles here are diesel and i think so is France. What are they doing about it.
 
wave01 said:
I am in Spain at the moment and 90% of the vehicles here are diesel and i think so is France. What are they doing about it.
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Probably not much, though at a guess I'd say that the local air quality in Madrid or Paris is little better than in London or Birmingham. It's especially sticky for the French government as they effectively sponsored Peugeot and Renault to develop light-duty Diesel engine technology to make the engines perform better and be more refined etc. Anybody that can remember engines with the old mechanically controlled diesel injection systems, will know how 'agricultural' they were back then.
 
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Paris wasn't the only city that used the odd/even number system. All it did was increased car sales - people who could afford to were buying another car with the opposite number so they could always drive into the city. These 2nd cars tended to be older models (cheaper) with fewer emission controls...
 
wave01 said:
I am in Spain at the moment and 90% of the vehicles here are diesel and i think so is France. What are they doing about it.
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Well, if you paid attention to the news you'd see that similar discussions are taking place in many European countries.
 
Audi and BMW are worried about diesel bans in German cities. And are promising to refit some of their cars to the Euro 5 level.
http://sz.de/1.3565080
Couldn't find a link yet in English.
 
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