Clients client didn't like the image, client can't pay me

It seems we all encounter these 'problem' clients once in a while. We could do with a secure database, password protected for legal reasons, for professionals to access. Perhaps the threat of being blacklisted would persuade these charlatans to behave more responsibly and pay up on time.
It would be a really good resource to have, to check what previous photographers experiences have been so we're not always dealing in the dark with cold callers who we have no idea about their reliability and integrity.
Don't be afraid to use the small claims court and advise a dodgy client that if payment is not settled forthwith they can have the legal costs as well. Most sit up straight and pay up, tho will be unlikely to use you again, but who the hell needs dodgy clients when there are so many decent ones out there? Time to kick the Arthur Daley's into the long grass!
:nono:
 
As for small claims, we took a Bristol garage to small claims court over the car my son bought. The cat was shot when we bought it, but they'd reset the engine management/fault log light twice the day before we bought it whilst it was getting a full MOT. Needless to say it was a worthless MOT as well.

That took a year - the original claim was just over £300 but escalated as we claimed costs (letters, garage fees etc), interest.

We were in the court for no more than 5 mins - found in our favour. Oh and I think you can ask for costs at that point as well - it's just it was all rushed through...
 
I'm sure I heard once that even if I win, theres still no guarantee that I'll get paid. Is that true?
 
They are unlikely to want a judgement against them as it will seriously harm their business, so will likely pay up before it gets to that stage. And they are even less likely to want extorionate bailiff costs which will put your original claim in the shade. Bailiffs can access their business premises and remove goods to the value of your claim. Hopefully it wont ever come to that but consider setting your stall out by stating in your letter your 'preparedness to secure payment through the Court but you trust that full payment will now be forthcoming and the need to recourse to the Court will not be necessary. Can I remind you that full payment is now x days over due and that full payment is due forthwith.'
Another approach, is to join BFP, which aslo acts a mediator/union in such disputes. They have resolved every dispute satisfactorily I have had and have an uncanny ability at prizing due payments from reluctant hands.
 
As far as I can gather from this thread the only way they won't pay up is either they go bankrupt (has happened to companies that have owed me money me twice) or they let a judgment go against them (very unlikely due to points explained well above).

All the best - it's an area of the business where you have to be a bit hard-nosed, but debit chasing is as important as getting the commission in the first place I think.
 
petemc said:
I'm sure I heard once that even if I win, theres still no guarantee that I'll get paid. Is that true?
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A band I'm now in did some work for an agent/promotor. He paid for the first show, then didn't for the next few eventualy saying 'tough your not getting paid' owing £10,000. They used equity to take it further, by the time it came to court he went bankrupt, and opened up business in another name. So while you may win, that could happen.
 
petemc said:
I'm sure I heard once that even if I win, theres still no guarantee that I'll get paid. Is that true?
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You have a few choices - Baliff route so long as there is enough stuff to seize.

I was advised to take out a Garnishee order, if my memory serves it enables someone on your behalf to go for a director and freeze accounts etc. In the end the company (one of the large mobile phone ones) contacted me straight away to arrange payment once the Garnishee order kicked in :)

If the company stalls payment then you can get them black listed which I did, they can get out of "as debt payed" if they pay you within the month of becoming blacklisted.

Garnishee Order was easy as did through Small Claims court
 
Ok so I'm incredibly late to this particular party but here goes:

In one of my previous lives I did a lot of freelance work as a graphic designer. Much of this work was for agencies who in turn were preparing the work for an "end client".

Having been caught out in a similar way a long time ago I revised my contacting proceedure so that my agreement was with the agency and that they would have to sign off an approval form upon submission of my work. (Before they got their client's approval). I structured the billing process so that they would pay an artwork fee and a creative fee (in your case you could substitute the word artwork for photography). This meant that my basic time, expenses and materials were covered in any event. The creative fee was essentially my charge for what the work was worth.

In many cases I would charge the artwork fee upfront.

Once the work was done I would present it - get them to sign the approval form if they liked it - and then bill them for the creative fee. If they were a good client I would offer them reduced costs on reworks (or reshoots in your case).

Worst case scenario I would always get my costs covered - but most times I avoided problems just by having clearer terms to my contracts.

Hope that is in some way helpful. - Sorry you got stitched up.
 
Ok update. They are counter-suing me for the cost of a reshoot. They hired another photographer to do the reshoot, never asked me to. They say that they never saw my T&C till June 15th after I had been informed of the issue with the photos. Thats a lie because it was attached to the invoice I sent dated 12/04/07. My T&C's are always attached to my invoices. They say that the last 2 jobs I did for them weren't photographic jobs, which is true as they were web design jobs. They say they've never seen my photo T&C's. While this specific company's MD may not have, they work in the same office as another company that I have done photo work for. In fact the guy I've dealt with for both companies has had my photo T&C's since 10/07/2006. He's the guy who got in touch about this job, and previous jobs for both companies. He's the guy I've always sent my invoices to. He's had a copy of my T&C's. So they are aware of them as they've been on my invoices. The other guy I dealt with received my email on 12/04/07 which contained an invoice and license to use. Both of these had my T&C's attached. They're also saying that they got other photographers to say that my images were sub-par for a professional photographer and did not reflect the brief given by their client. Now as you can see, my images are very similar to the ones they've used on their site. I'm not sure how legal words on a forum are, but I think it would be good to have as many photographers on my side to point out things against theres. The court is asking for either witness or experts opinions. I've got to send this back by the 21st Oct.

I'm very ****** off. Now if things hit the fan I have to pay for a reshoot I never got offered to do!? ****! I really want to win this simply because now they're lying ****s.
 
Their counter claim is laughable and they'll have a hard time showing otherwise. Why would they offer you 50% for your troubles if they were planning to pay for a re-shoot?
 
Also - didn't you say that another guy took the shots they did use on the same day as you shot yours? How on earth is that a re-shoot?
 
Doesn't make sense. So far they've paid for only one shoot (the reshoot), so how can they reasonably expect to make you pay for that?

Dig your teeth in and don't let go!
 
pxl8 said:
Also - didn't you say that another guy took the shots they did use on the same day as you shot yours? How on earth is that a re-shoot?
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My client did follow me round on the day with a 350D taking some other snaps. He never said anything bad on the day, and everything he suggested I photographed. They have included an invoice from the photographer they hired for the reshoot.

Ian T said:
Doesn't make sense. So far they've paid for only one shoot (the reshoot), so how can they reasonably expect to make you pay for that?

Dig your teeth in and don't let go!
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Agreed. It makes very little sense, at least to me.
 
As a professional retoucher of pictures (repro) if I can help give me a shout, but it would have to be before Saturday as I'm on me jollies :)
 
Cheers. I'm just writing an email I'm going to send out to people with details of the "event" and information on what I need.
 
This whole thing is a joke, i really hope you win as the other people are just clutching at straws.
 
I cant see how they are going to be really, it seems like a very desperate measure to try and win a battle they lost at the start. Its just a pitty to see companys go this much out of their way to shaft a photographer out of £500 (i think it was 500 off the top of my head). I mean the business has easily lost more than that in lost productivity trying to avoid paying you for work you did to them.

It really looks like they just wanted you to back down and this is just another step in their bullying practices. Counter-sueing somebody for something silly seems to be the thing to do when companies are getting sued.
 
I agree, I wouldnt have said they have a hope in hell of winning, and they're clutching at straws in the hope you'll back down.

They've already offered you 50% haven't they? That will go a hell of a long way in court towards proving your case I would have thought.


What it sounds to me is that they've hired you to go round, and their photographer has copied your shots for free, then theyve binned you off without paying for you.
Maybe they planned this from the start?
 
As i was talking to fiona about this it seemed more and more likely that they from the start had wanted to get some free photo advice then fob you off with excuses and not pay. They had just hoped you would back down and not take them to court. Im sure most people would of backed down and took the 250.

IMO There should be a blacklist register of companies who hire professional photographers and shaft them with stuff like this. Then photographers will know to avoid the companies that dont pay.
 
Crazy way of working if you ask me. Oh and the fee for the re-shoot was 55p more than mine. So if they did have to hire someone else, it wasn't because he was cheaper than me. Its really weird.
 
Some very fishy goings on if you ask me...
 
Slightly different "subject matter" but we get this as well, I go to do a "given job" then the customer says Oh no I only wanted a survey so having spent an hour, doing said survey which is all part and parcel of HSE and risk assesments, they then say I will let you know and get another firm in to to the actual work when all the background has been done and the problem identified. We Quote " survey's free of charge if we carry out the work". They then refuse to pay for said survey. So I can't offer any help Pete, just sympathise and know what you are going through. A simple solicitors letter works 90% of the time for us. then there is the 10% of rissoles that make life difficult.. Just remember nil carberundum illigitimii ( don't let the barstewards grind you down :D )
 
petemc said:
Ok fun time Friday. A client, who hasn't yet paid after nearly 2 months, now rings me and says that their client hated the images. They wanted images of their spacious apartments. So I shot them at 10mm with the flash. The lighting, white balance, contrast, sharpness, all was fine. My client was happy with them. Invoice sent. Today I hear that their client, who owns the property, hated them and is refusing to pay for them. They say its a large contract to them so they're having to bend over for them to keep it. So they're dumping my images and going with god knows. So now they're not getting the money to afford my fee. They said they're willing to pay, out their own pocket, half the fee. Now given that everytime I deal with this client they never pay on time, I dropped £100 off this project to get the job and did an extra half days work for free I'm sorely tempted to say "Nope, you paid for these images and its not my problem if you don't use them. £500 please." On the other hand, I could accept them at their word. On the other hand their design guy posted on a forum I'm on looking for a photographer because their director wanted someone else, even though I had just done a job for them.

So, what to do what to do.

edit: Ok in my own T&C it says that they can reject the photos if they pay a fee. I guess 50% of the original fee is as good as I'll get.
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These people are a pain in the ass. They ordered, they got their photos, they approved them. So, legally, they got to pay the full amount. You would win this one if you went to court.

But you don't want the aggravation. So I'd cut my losses, smile at their faces and accept the 50% offer, and never work for 'm again (but you tell 'm that only after they have paid!).

And spread the word.

Good luck!
 
W.Smith said:
These people are a pain in the ass. They ordered, they got their photos, they approved them. So, legally, they got to pay the full amount. You would win this one if you went to court.

But you don't want the aggravation. So I'd cut my losses, smile at their faces and accept the 50% offer, and never work for 'm again (but you tell 'm that only after they have paid!).

And spread the word.

Good luck!
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where as i would dig my heals in and take them to court for the satisfaction of it.

I hate people like this and they deserve to be punished :bat:

Until somebody does stand up to them they will keep abusing the 'little man'.
 
if you cut your losses and walk away it gives them free reign to go and do exactly the same to someone else further down the line

as chillimonster says, dig your heals in win the case, get your money and then hopefully the company will think again about doing the same to someone else
 
Chillimonster said:
where as i would dig my heals in and take them to court for the satisfaction of it.
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I didn't start photography to get ****ed about by a bunch of losers and spend all my time – and my money – in court or in conference with lawyers. If I did, I would have studied law.

Write a nice column in the local newspaper (after you take their 50%!) about business mores, and illustrate it with this example . . .

SWEET REVENGE!

And then you go on to other, more interesting photographic projects.
 
Pete, if you are going to take this to a small claims court its fairly simple and most people pay up when they get the notification but and its a big but, the judge does not look at it as you would expect, he will ask thinks like did you invoice? did you send a reminder , another reminder, did you warn them that repeated ignoring of your invoice will give you no choice but to go to the small claims court, did you give them every chance to pay before you took the steps you took. It will be no good saying you did its much more beneficial for you to produce documentation ie, letter one, 1st demand letter b second demand etc etc.It all looks very cut and dried on here but the judge has no knowledge of what has gone on and will seek to clarify everything the more you can document your case the more chance you will have. You have every chance of winning this but the judge will not take sides he or she will make there decision based on the evidence you put before them. My longest post ever going for a lay down, Regards Jim.
 
W.Smith said:
These people are a pain in the ass. They ordered, they got their photos, they approved them. So, legally, they got to pay the full amount. You would win this one if you went to court.

But you don't want the aggravation. So I'd cut my losses, smile at their faces and accept the 50% offer, and never work for 'm again (but you tell 'm that only after they have paid!).

And spread the word.

Good luck!
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Yeah sorta 5 pages since I made that post. I'm going to court, I'm not accepting 50%.

Kentman said:
Pete, if you are going to take this to a small claims court its fairly simple and most people pay up when they get the notification but and its a big but, the judge does not look at it as you would expect, he will ask thinks like did you invoice? did you send a reminder , another reminder, did you warn them that repeated ignoring of your invoice will give you no choice but to go to the small claims court, did you give them every chance to pay before you took the steps you took. It will be no good saying you did its much more beneficial for you to produce documentation ie, letter one, 1st demand letter b second demand etc etc.It all looks very cut and dried on here but the judge has no knowledge of what has gone on and will seek to clarify everything the more you can document your case the more chance you will have. You have every chance of winning this but the judge will not take sides he or she will make there decision based on the evidence you put before them. My longest post ever going for a lay down, Regards Jim.
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No offence, but I've heard that most people pay on a solicitors letter, and threats of court. Not happened yet so I am dubious about this all working out fine. I sent them emails, rang them, msn'd, asked at the door for my money. Nothing but "Tomorrow, next week, being worked on." Then "Yeah well our client wasn't happy. We're not paying you."
 
OK no offence taken, threats are a different thing to action, read my advice again and if you going to go to court listen to it, been there T shirt etc, not lost one yet but certain muscles have twitched a bit. Regards Jim
 
Yeah I plan to produce evidence. I've got all the emails, msn logs, and things. Every invoice I've sent has got my T&C's attached so I can print them all out to show its how I do things.
 
W.Smith said:
Write a nice column in the local newspaper (after you take their 50%!) about business mores, and illustrate it with this example . . .

SWEET REVENGE!
.
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and then find yourself in court on an entirely different case of defiling (is that the correct word to use?) their business name....:shrug:
 
Maybe we should start a "Petemc's legal fund"
 
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