London tower block on fire

Mr Bump said:
in a word BREXIT the population voted to shut down immigration and the massive amount of benefits and housing for non UK nationals.
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I think you will find that one of the many people who did get out, was a true cockney bloke who got his family out from the 7th floor, also a Human.
 
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Mr Bump said:
unfortunatly that is not the case and even if it was we do not have enough land or money to give everyone a nice new shiny modern living space.
london especially is just beyond bonkers with housing costs.

given also the fact most of the people in this block were not UK nationals what do you think the population would say in the current climate if we gave them all a 250k green field semi?
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Then I guess these deaths are acceptable to some.

Regarding foreign nationals, I guess you mean low incomes? Where the correct solution is to distribute them in mixed income properties. Which in turn means building mixed value properties. And thus legislating for non ghetto properties. Anything else is propagating ghettos, and causing such cost cutting that may have cost lives here.

'Ghetto' meaning areas solely consisting of properties for low income residents. Many years ago this was realised to be a cause of many troubles. And completely avoidable with sensible planning.
 
Mr Bump said:
in a word BREXIT the population voted to shut down immigration and the massive amount of benefits and housing for non UK nationals.
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Forgive me, but what the actual f*** does Brexit have to do with this fire:)
 
This could be a perfect storm scenario where lots of different events combine to cause an unstoppable spread of fire.
Maybe not any particular defect, bit like the small fire under the escalator that caused a fireball which became an inferno at King's Cross station

Doesn't mean every high rise building is now a tinderbox, let common sense prevail and concentrate on identifying and showing respect for the deceased
 
Just seen a picture of the in case of fire instructions for the block, what i find interesting is its only written in English unless of course other signs where in place for other languages,i know where i used to work 90% of the factory workers where EU migrants with a very poor understanding of the spoken English let alone the written word.

It may have made no difference but i hope the signs where in place to help all residents, i do know most of the people i worked with could not have taken phone instructions from the emergency services.
 
grenfell-aftermath-5.jpg

Will they pull it down now? Or will they want to fix it up? New windows, fire proof cladding, a sprinkler system, lick of paint?
 
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ianp5a said:
You can retro fit or pull down if that's too expensive. This place is very old. They pull down a lot newer buildings.

Life is more valuable than an old building.
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The top floors are unsafe for the firecrews to enter to search until they are supported, so I can see this building being demolished
 
chrism_scotland said:
Most of the speculation is that noone survived from the top 3 or 4 floors sadly, but like most things that has not been confirmed.
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There were a family who left from the 21st floor, found their way down through the smoke, then the Dad went back in when he found his child was missing, found them on the 12th floor stairwell and was helped out with them by firefighters.
There was the guy on the 7th floor taken out at 1pm by firefighters. I think he was low and on the opposite site of the building
 
It now looks as though the cladding - Reynobond - was banned in the US (where ir was made) and in Germany.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...on-cladding-banned-us-flammable-a7792711.html

And the Conservative councillor is trying to shift the blame onto the residents for the decision not to incorporate a sprinkler system, saying they felt it would cause more disruption. I doubt if ordinary residents were consulted about safety equipment.

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknew...y-didnt-want-disruption/ar-BBCK0uN?li=BBoPWjQ
 
tijuana taxi said:
This could be a perfect storm scenario where lots of different events combine to cause an unstoppable spread of fire.
Maybe not any particular defect, bit like the small fire under the escalator that caused a fireball which became an inferno at King's Cross station

Doesn't mean every high rise building is now a tinderbox, let common sense prevail and concentrate on identifying and showing respect for the deceased
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That is just what I think will happen, a small fire got badly out of control quickly, just like King`s Cross.
 
tijuana taxi said:
This could be a perfect storm scenario where lots of different events combine to cause an unstoppable spread of fire.
Maybe not any particular defect, bit like the small fire under the escalator that caused a fireball which became an inferno at King's Cross station

Doesn't mean every high rise building is now a tinderbox, let common sense prevail and concentrate on identifying and showing respect for the deceased
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True, but there were an awful lot of things learned from Kings Cross and changes made. To my mind, showing respect for the deceased is as much about learning from their very unfortunate deaths and stopping it happening in future if you're able
 
Dave70D said:
That is just what I think will happen, a small fire got badly out of control quickly, just like King`s Cross.
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Maybe interesting to see if it turns out to be just like King's Cross where there were numerous (I hear 18 being quoted on the radio this morning) previous fires and "lessons were not learned" (sick of hearing that cliched phrase) until lives were lost.
 
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arclight said:
Maybe interesting to see if it turns out to be just like King's Cross where there were 18 previous fires and "lessons were not learned" (sick of hearing that phrase) until lives were lost.
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The very sad thing about it all though, lessons will not be learned, now that is sad.
 
It's been a known issue for years, lessons may be learnt but I wouldn't expect too much.
Even then it is reactionary, too late.

The fact it the issue has been known about within the industry for a long time and nothing has been done about it. It's something we as a company have been arguing for a long time and not been listened to. Nothing every gets taken seriously until someone dies.
 
andy700 said:
It now looks as though the cladding - Reynobond - was banned in the US (where ir was made) and in Germany.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...on-cladding-banned-us-flammable-a7792711.html

And the Conservative councillor is trying to shift the blame onto the residents for the decision not to incorporate a sprinkler system, saying they felt it would cause more disruption. I doubt if ordinary residents were consulted about safety equipment.

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknew...y-didnt-want-disruption/ar-BBCK0uN?li=BBoPWjQ
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Sky news have obtained some of the cladding and...
http://news.sky.com/video/burning-same-material-as-the-grenfell-cladding-10917155
 
It reminds me of 9-11 where it would have been nigh on impossible to ID many :(

That's probably even worse for families who eventually "need" closure - and I guess that's why an accurate figure may never be stated. Sad times.
 
Byker28i said:
Sky news have obtained some of the cladding and...
http://news.sky.com/video/burning-same-material-as-the-grenfell-cladding-10917155
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Although I clicked the "like" button, a "horrified" button would have been more appropriate. That reminded me very much of those white BBQ lighters which you place around the coals. As soon as the substance started to leech out, it combusted violently. That experiment was carried out with the cladding horizontal, as opposed to the vertically clad building. It is obvious what caused the fire at Grenfell Tower to spread so quickly on the outside of the building.
 
The Guardian are reporting that:
Material used in the cladding that covered the Grenfell Tower was the cheaper, more flammable version of the two available options, an investigation of the supply chain has confirmed.
Omnis Exteriors manufactured the aluminium composite material (ACM) used in the cladding, a director, John Cowley, confirmed to the Guardian.
He also said Omnis had been asked to supply Reynobond PE cladding, which is £2 cheaper per square metre than the alternative Reynobond FR, which stands for “fire resistant”.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...-grenfell-tower-identified-as-omnis-exteriors
 
Byker28i said:
The Guardian are reporting that:
Material used in the cladding that covered the Grenfell Tower was the cheaper, more flammable version of the two available options, an investigation of the supply chain has confirmed.
Omnis Exteriors manufactured the aluminium composite material (ACM) used in the cladding, a director, John Cowley, confirmed to the Guardian.
He also said Omnis had been asked to supply Reynobond PE cladding, which is £2 cheaper per square metre than the alternative Reynobond FR, which stands for “fire resistant”.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...-grenfell-tower-identified-as-omnis-exteriors
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The detail missing is who asked for the standard product to be supplied and if that was in directs contrast with what had been specified in the design. If so that would likely be willful negligence.

In the UK there are no regulations requiring the use of fire-retardant material in cladding used on the exterior of tower blocks and schools. But the Fire Protection Association (FPA), an industry body, has been pushing for years for the government to make it a statutory requirement for local authorities and companies to use only fire-retardant material.
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This isn't quite correct through. Although not an outright ban, there are regulations in place which restricts the use of materials not of limited combustibility in buildings above 18m.

This is outlined in the building regulations, approved documents B2, specifically sections 12.5 and 12.7.
I can't share now as our copies are registered and my company would take a dim view if they found out. But copies should be available online.
 
Dave70D said:
The very sad thing about it all though, lessons will not be learned, now that is sad.
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That's what I believe too.
Oh, there'll be a lot of noise made...much wailing and chest beating.
Promises will be made...and broken, and somewhere down the line there'll be another disaster caused by some local authority wanting to spend less and being willing to cut corners.
 
Byker28i said:
The Guardian are reporting that:
Material used in the cladding that covered the Grenfell Tower was the cheaper, more flammable version of the two available options, an investigation of the supply chain has confirmed.
Omnis Exteriors manufactured the aluminium composite material (ACM) used in the cladding, a director, John Cowley, confirmed to the Guardian.
He also said Omnis had been asked to supply Reynobond PE cladding, which is £2 cheaper per square metre than the alternative Reynobond FR, which stands for “fire resistant”.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...-grenfell-tower-identified-as-omnis-exteriors
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FFS the difference would have been £5, 000 more to use the fire resistant version!!!! :eek:


...... on an £8.6m refit. Whoever chose to save 5K needs to be held responsible.
 
viv1969 said:
That's what I believe too.
Oh, there'll be a lot of noise made...much wailing and chest beating.
Promises will be made...and broken, and somewhere down the line there'll be another disaster caused by some local authority wanting to spend less and being willing to cut corners.
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The uncomfortable truth is that as far as the State is concerned...

THE POOR ARE EXPENDABLE ... always have been and always will be.
 
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That's true.

It will be knocked down, too nice of a place to have housing for the poor
 
Just read that the big boss responsible for housing there is having a party at his mansion tonight.

You couldn't make this stuff up.

IMG_4308.jpg
 
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Stuart M said:
The uncomfortable truth is that as far as the State is concerned...

THE POOR ARE EXPENDABLE ... always have been and always will be.
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From what I've read some of the flat interiors were done to a very high standard and some of the rent figures were 1700/month.

It's been a bit of a media assumption that the block was all asylum seekers and less well off.
 
Saw a very good post on this

All incidents are avoidable with hindsight.

On one hand the Residents Committee seemingly complained vociferously about safety to no avail, on the other hand no one wanted sprinklers installed.

On one hand the cladding and its installation looks like a major contributory factor, on the other it seems to have been compliant with current regs.

On one hand no one has listened to 'the poor', on the other they just spent £10m making the place more insulated to lower bills and provide comfort.

On one hand lack of money mean cuts have been made to the FB, on the other they got there in 6 minutes and deployed 200+ officers and did all they could do.

On one hand you have understandable grief and anguish for those affected, on the other you have those making political capitol from that grief to further their own agenda.

On one hand you want someone to demonstrate compassion, on the other you have a crowd ready to lynch anyone in authority.

For the incident itself there is an immediate enquiry underway, for those left homeless there are arrangements being made, for those accusing the media and authorities of hiding the death figures there is no succour as this necessarily takes time - you can't say 'about 100 are dead' and then not be able to name them.

Those protesting don't even know what they are protesting about apart from their entrenched views about who's fault it is - when no one actually knows for sure where the blame lies.

May was mistaken not to attend the scene immediately, Corbyn is equally guilty for playing up the crowd with sixth-form socialism rather than pragmatic sense. Khan seems to have trod the middle road but the worst offenders here are the relentless, ghoulish and hysterical media - who once again demonstrate their complete disregard for any dignity or sense in the name of copies sold or viewing figures. Deplorable behaviour in the face of such tragedy.
 
neil_g said:
From what I've read some of the flat interiors were done to a very high standard and some of the rent figures were 1700/month.

It's been a bit of a media assumption that the block was all asylum seekers and less well off.
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There were a handful of flats in private hands, part of the right to buy some years ago, but the majority were owned by the council. 4 bedroom large flats, 4 flats to a floor looking at the plans, in a desirable area.
 
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