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It isAs it's got a red dot, Leica people assume it must be the best of its class.
Neil
It isAs it's got a red dot, Leica people assume it must be the best of its class.
It is
Neil
The M10 with 28/5.6 fits in your pocket because the lens is only 18mm long (see post 1015 as well). The Sony 24/1.8 Sonnar is 83mm long. Even my Leica 90mm T-E is only 62mm long.
Steve it will be interesting to see what the TL2 experience is like seeing as I like to put my eye to a eye piece. Anyway I guess I will find out tomorrow. If I don’t like it then my wife will have a new toyI've just realised that the screen is fixed on the TL2 as well Neil. I hadn't seen that before. I know you've got the Visoflex for looking down on the camera but isn't that a bit of a pain if you want to shoot anything from higher up?
They're all great reasons Stephen. I shoot analogue for similar reasons but the conversation was about the TL2 which is none of those things.
Edit: It's condescending comments like this that really says more about the stereotypical Leica owner;
"There's no point really explaining. Leica users understand, most non-Leica users don't."
The conversation was about a digital mirrorless body that has similar styling to a 5 year old Sony Nex5, with no digital or optical viewfinder as standard, no image stabilisation and sluggish autofocus. As I said, if Sony sold the same camera for £2k today they would be laughed out of the market. As it's got a red dot, Leica people assume it must be the best of its class.
I forgot to add that that's hardly a like for like comparison. A slow f5.6 28mm lens on the M10 versus a very quick f1.8 24mm lens on the Sony. Mount the 28/5.6 onto the Sony and compare the size then. You lose the rangefinder but you've still got a much smaller package to put in your pocket.
It's mainly about image quality and use. It's not really about specifications (mostly, although the ISO performance is a key thing). My Monochrom was 18mp and the best digital body I ever owned because of the sensor design.
This review sums it up very well.
http://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2017/07/25/the-leica-tl2-full-camera-review-the-modern-day-leica/
I don't want a TL2, but if I did have one I would use M lenses on it.
We use non-Leica here. I had a used Sony A7R. Just did not enjoy using it. Awful handling and dreadful design. Put it up for sale, but my son's X-Pro1 got a dodgy sensor so I gave the Sony to him. He mostly shoots film on a Bessa. My other son uses Fuji XT1, some good but sluggish lenses. My son only uses M lenses on the Sony, a mix of Leica, Zeiss and Voightlander. We also have a used Sony RX100 Mk3 for when around water or sand and he takes it to festivals and gigs.
I've only ever sold thee Leica items, two of which I regret - the Monochrom and a 50/f2 ASPH. Even the M10 can't do b&w like the Monochrom. Nothing can. The 50/f2 ASPH is the sharpest 50mm ever by anyone, better than the 50/1.4 ASPH I now have, but the latter has much better bokeh. If I want sharpness, I can get close if I borrow my son's Zeiss 50/f2 Planar.
With the 28/5.6 I hardly ever look through the rangefinder. It's specifically a street lens. As I mentioned at the top the current Leica digitals all use versions of the Maestro II processor. Don't know what's in the Sony.
New Leica are expensive because they are handmade. Reviewers never consider camera depreciation. Sony values fall like a stone. My A7R cost me £700, it was 12 months old and had cost someone £1,700 new. My Leica Q cost me £2,900 new over 2 years ago and I could sell it for at least £2,500. I sold me M9 and 50/f2 with no overall loss at all. Battery life - I carry spares. Big deal. No IS - the camera is designed not to need IS. No EVF - I commented on this before, a no-no for me, but the TL2 can use an external EVF and the same one as on the M10.
Steve I take pictures for fun and I like to think I am quite good at it. I look at cameras like cars. If I like the look of it then I will try it. If after trying it I don't like it I will sell it on. I like the look of the TL2 I have seen some pictures taken with it and they are cool. I will know on Thursday night if I'm going to keep it or not...... my gut feeling is I will like it as they look really cool with the Arte Di Mango half case.Again, you're drifting off into M mode which has nothing in relation to the TL2. I'm not questioning the quality/ability of the M range, they're clearly a unique proposition.
Like it or not, specifications do matter when they're key to the usability and handling of a camera. I agree that a lot of Sony functions aren't required so I don't use them. However, an EVF/OVF are important if you want to shoot in daylight without holding the camera in front of your face to see the screen. IBIS helps steady your shots when the shutter speed drops and good AF is pretty useful for AF lenses otherwise it just gets frustrating.
These reviews also sum up the camera, proving that all cameras are personal preference but when a manufacturer sells an APSC mirrorless body for £2k with the bolt on EVF and then charges an extra £65 for a "camera strap adaptor" so you can use your own strap instead of the proprietary plug in rubber strap it's clearly form over function.
https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/leica-tl2-first-impressions
http://www.trustedreviews.com/reviews/leica-tl2
Pros
Cons
- Beautiful, tactile design
- Superb touchscreen interface
- Excellent raw image quality
- 32GB memory built-in
- No built-in electronic viewfinder
- Uninspiring JPEG output
- No image stabilisation in either the body or lens
- Doesn’t work so well in low light
http://www.techradar.com/reviews/leica-tl2-review
OUR VERDICT
The Leica TL2 is certainly not without its charms. It's beautifully made, the large and bright touchscreen is one of the best we've used on a camera, and images from the 24.3MP APS-C sensor are very good (provided you shoot in raw). However, it just doesn't offer the wealth of features we'd hope to see on a camera demanding this kind of money.
FOR
AGAINST
- Stunning touchscreen
- Excellent raw image quality
- Premium finish
- High price
- Poor battery life
- No IS for still images
- No built-in EVF
Neil, I'm sorry if it looks like I'm trying to pee on your parade but, as a photographer, I find it hard to take a camera purely on face value and instead look at what it actually delivers as a whole. I sincerely hope you like the camera and enjoy using it.
Steve I take pictures for fun and I like to think I am quite good at it. I look at cameras like cars. If I like the look of it then I will try it. If after trying it I don't like it I will sell it on. I like the look of the TL2 I have seen some pictures taken with it and they are cool. I will know on Thursday night if I'm going to keep it or not...... my gut feeling is I will like it as they look really cool with the Arte Di Mango half case.
Neil
Fair enough, we all like different things which is why we're lucky that there is so much choice. I didn't realise that you had to go into the menu to adjust exposure compensation on the M10 though?
What I like on the M10 is one click on the Menu button gets a user-defined list of 8 menu items, a double click and you get the full menu. Its a shame they can't reverse engineer this onto the Q. One of the most infuriating things about Fuji and Sony are their menu structures. Just horrid.
Also on the M10, when in aperture mode and you half-press the shutter button, it tells you the exposure compensation for about half a second (with no other information to confuse you) and then speed. So there is no risk of accidentally having an exposure adjustment, which is a very easy mistake on many cameras.
These things make perfect sense, are not difficult to implement and make taking good pictures that much easier. They just require good thinking. It amazes me how so many cameras have such dreadful thinking layered on superb technology. The Leica electronics are, I assume, implemented by Panasonic, it's just that a lot of care and thought, based on a lot of feedback, has gone into their design. The reason seems to be that Leica is unique in aiming for simplicity, most other manufacturers aim for multi-taking complexity.
I very rarely need to use the menu on the Sony, although I struggle to understand the negativity towards their menus as they look like any other that I've used before. With regards to the exposure comp, the Sony gives you the choice of displaying all/no data as an overlay, just your shutter/aperture/exposure comp, a histogram or just a horizon gauge so it pretty much covers all the options. I realise that this will probably be seen as too much information and distracting but each to their own.
"This is a mirrorless camera for people for whom ‘good-enough-design’ isn’t quite good enough. For those who like to indulge in a bit of flare in their lives with a cherry in their Manhattan; a spoon full of sugar with their medicine, and a camera with curves so organic they seamlessly blend into each other as if made of flesh."
That says it all.
Essentially, the article focuses on the external shape and machined body (which I agree is unique but will be freezing cold in winter!), and attempts to gloss over the negatives;
Slow AF even in daylight from the 60mm and in general compared to other cameras like the 6500, "its autofocus is a bit behind, though not bad. Well, that is if you’re not used to a6500 speeds"
An LCD that displays a different brightness/colour balance to the actual output?
20fps only when the camera automatically switches to electronic shutter above 1/4000th
29 frame buffer so the 20fps will stop after 1.5 seconds
The body looks nice but the shape isn't revolutionary (search for a Sony NEX C3/3/5, Samsung NX1000 etc for the same overall shape)
The dials have a wake up function so you have to click them first before they make any changes, "It’s about as useful as putting a ‘snooze’ button on a smoke alarm."
The battery has part of the base plate built in to it so it leaves a hole in the base when charging.
It looks like a nice point and shoot mirrorless body that will stand out as expensive when sitting at a table outside a cafe in Monaco.
Na...OMG........ getva life
Jelosly is an I’ll ess
OMG........ getva life
Jelosly is an I’ll ess
And it's all about balance. Pointless having a camera that just looks good vs another that has more functions etc but each to their ownI was merely commenting on the review that was shared which followed the line of describe how beautiful the camera is but ignore the rest. As someone actually interested in photography, I'm not jealous of a shiny camera.
How old are you? Lol.Seriously. You really have no idea what your talk about. You know it, I know it everybody knows it LEICA cameras are in a class of there own when it comes to build quality and IQ ........ you can join th ranks of the jellious leica hatters
Neil
Seriously. You really have no idea what your talk about. You know it, I know it everybody knows it LEICA cameras are in a class of there own when it comes to build quality and IQ ........ you can join th ranks of the jellious leica hatters
Neil
Sorry Neil but that's just the stereotypical negative attitude of some Leica fans. Numerous reviews of the camera clearly show that it's lacking in comparison to other APS-C mirrorless systems in many ways but because it's got a red dot and it's overpriced you believe it must be the best camera in the world.
I've really tried not to be so blunt but it's not about about jealousy or haters, it's about facts. Go ahead and buy it based on looks and badge but please don't assume that everyone else is missing out by not having one.
So in a nutshell. Only leica fanboys are allowed to view and post here? LolYou miss the whole point. It’s got to do with the IQ of a leica. You just don’t get the leica look with a Sony or a Pentax or a Nikon ........... you just don’t get that look.
Another thing that doesn’t make sense is why would someone like you that obviously doesn’t like Leica go and look on the “official leica thread”........ I can’t imagine myself looking at Canon or Sony threads as I have no I trespass at them or care about them........ strange
Neil
Sorry Neil but that's just the stereotypical negative attitude of some Leica fans. Numerous reviews of the camera clearly show that it's lacking in comparison to other APS-C mirrorless systems in many ways but because it's got a red dot and it's overpriced you believe it must be the best camera in the world.
I've really tried not to be so blunt but it's not about about jealousy or haters, it's about facts. Go ahead and buy it based on looks and badge but please don't assume that everyone else is missing out by not having one.
You miss the whole point. It’s got to do with the IQ of a leica. You just don’t get the leica look with a Sony or a Pentax or a Nikon ........... you just don’t get that look.
Another thing that doesn’t make sense is why would someone like you that obviously doesn’t like Leica go and look on the “official leica thread”........ I can’t imagine myself looking at Canon or Sony threads as I have no I trespass at them or care about them........ strange
Neil
So in a nutshell. Only leica fanboys are allowed to view and post here? Lol
Absolutely not. Of course anyone who wants to look can look but like you. The only reason you would want to look is for the want of a leica.......... I’ve been there and done that.
Do yourself a favor and go and buy a leica...... any leica. You know you want one [emoji7][emoji7][emoji7][emoji7]
I guess the face-covering emoji doesn't work here.
Just to clarify. I look in the thread because I'm interested in photography and gear. Maybe the difference is that I can critically look past a badge to decide if a camera is actually good or not?
But the picture was taken by a human being so in theory you should be looking at who took the shot and how.Stop looking at the spec of the camera and look at the pictures........ the pictures tell the story........ the poof is in the pudding as such
Neil