Photographers giving others a bad name

ukaskew

ukaskew

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I spent the day at the Royal International Air Tattoo yesterday and was there from 6:30am to 7pm so covered a lot of ground. It was probably the best air display I've seen since the 90s, pretty incredible.

The day was completely faultless in terms of the organisation, but one particular aspect left a bad taste...photographers.

1) Walking past the B-1 Bomber on static, it was early so pretty quiet, me and Dad were heading over to read the tech sheet thing in front of it and look at it close up (it was well roped off). "GET OUT OF THE WAY" came hollering from the distance, and again, and again. We turned around and a good 30 yards back were 10-15 photographers stood on stools pointing their cameras at the B-1. They were remarkably aggressive and wouldn't let up until we had vacated the vast empty space in front of them. I'm always more than happy to detour around people taking photos etc and not intentionally jump in when somebody is clearly trying to shoot something, but for a whole bunch of guys to demand a massive area of tarmac and shoot from a distance, AND be aggressive about it, not on.

2) We were sat at the front of the crowd line for the display, when the Red Arrows were taking off two young lads came up to the front and we made room to let them get at the front to see the take-off. Guy with a huge set up uses that as his opportunity to pretty much elbow past them and take up the space we had quite clearly made for them.

Looking along the crowdline near us there were numerous occasions when photographers at the front would stand up (completely unnecessarily), causing a wave of others to need to stand or move to see things happening lower down (such as the Sea King display). A couple with their two boys a bit further down from us looked pretty fed up with the selfishness of it all.

I won't tar all aviation photographers with the same brush as I'm sure many are perfectly nice, but there were just so many little things throughout the day where I felt ashamed to be photographer. It was a huge contrast to Goodwood FoS two weeks before, which despite being much, much busier in terms of available photo spots was surprisingly civilized.
 
Nothing on the same level - but still left me with a bad feeling about photographers:

Last year my husband and I went to a premiership football match, first time both of us had been for years :) We were walking around outside the stadium before the match and had a chat with one of the stewards, he told us where to wait to see the teams getting off the coaches, and roughly what time to get there... We got a clear view, and slowly the area around us started to fill with people, then the coaches arrived. There were two young lads, eight or nine years old, stood behind us, desperate to see the players, so I let them through to stand at the front... Swiftly followed by two (amateur) photographers who pushed past me and the two kids, blocking our view totally... My hubby lifted the two lads up in turns so they could see over the top.

Edited to add: I understand the desire to get some good photos from the day, but at busy public events it is unfair to expect to have it all! Do the hard work and perhaps negotiate access at quieter times instead, rather than getting angry and entitled :)
 
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Photographers who blatantly trespass. I'm not taking about standing inside a gate or on the other side of a wall, I'm taking about the ones who walk 20 minutes in to someone else's land and then publish the photos/vlog about it.
 
Unfortunately there are inconsiderate people in most groups - photographers included.

The majority will be considerate, take their turn, allow children or anyone else who is less able than themselves to have equal opportunities, etc.
But in the main, you don't remember them - it's the ones that don't behave as they should, the ones that annoy, that you (and others) remember.
 
Faldrax said:
Unfortunately there are inconsiderate people in most groups - photographers included.
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That's true, it was perhaps just slightly more jarring at an event like RIAT which attracts a high volume of fairly hardcore enthusiast photographers. It did feel at times like it was 'their event' and anyone else was a bit of an inconvenience.
 
ukaskew said:
That's true, it was perhaps just slightly more jarring at an event like RIAT which attracts a high volume of fairly hardcore enthusiast photographers. It did feel at times like it was 'their event' and anyone else was a bit of an inconvenience.
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Over the years I've come to the conclusion that photography as a pursuit attracts more than its fair share of socially awkward people. I've seen unempathetic behavior like this on many occasions and you only need to spend 5 mins on TP to see very abnormally blunt posts and arguments deriving from the least contentious of issues.
 
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gad-westy said:
Over the years, I've come to the conclusion that photography as a pursuit attracts more than its fair share of socially awkward people. I've seen unempathetic behavior like this on many occasions and you only need to spend 5 mins on TP to see very abnormally blunt posts and arguments deriving from the least contentious of issues.
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But you also see plenty examples of helpful and generous postings - just like driving down the road, the few % of drivers that have no regard for others have a much higher 'profile' than those who drive sensibly and with consideration.
 
gad-westy said:
Over the years I've come to the conclusion that photography as a pursuit attracts more than its fair share of socially awkward people. I've seen unempathetic behavior like this on many occasions and you only need to spend 5 mins on TP to see very abnormally blunt posts and arguments deriving from the least contentious of issues.
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Probably n0 more then any other group of people. Like every other walk of life photography will attract its share of good eggs and its share of utter knobs.
 
ukaskew said:
I spent the day at the Royal International Air Tattoo yesterday and was there from 6:30am to 7pm so covered a lot of ground. It was probably the best air display I've seen since the 90s, pretty incredible.

The day was completely faultless in terms of the organisation, but one particular aspect left a bad taste...photographers.

1) Walking past the B-1 Bomber on static, it was early so pretty quiet, me and Dad were heading over to read the tech sheet thing in front of it and look at it close up (it was well roped off). "GET OUT OF THE WAY" came hollering from the distance, and again, and again. We turned around and a good 30 yards back were 10-15 photographers stood on stools pointing their cameras at the B-1. They were remarkably aggressive and wouldn't let up until we had vacated the vast empty space in front of them.
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My suggestion is that you should have started photographing them, especially with a phone, selfies perhaps.
 
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gad-westy said:
Over the years I've come to the conclusion that photography as a pursuit attracts more than its fair share of socially awkward people. I've seen unempathetic behavior like this on many occasions and you only need to spend 5 mins on TP to see very abnormally blunt posts and arguments deriving from the least contentious of issues.
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I said something very similar several years ago. Photography is and always has been an ideal hobby for those who don't want to play with others. Nothing wrong with that of course, but there's no denying it either. As such I often laugh at the behaviour of photographers who seem to lack any consideration for other people. I suspect it's why I hear so many photographers say they find people photography to be the hardest genre, they just don't have the people skills to make it work.

A bunch of socially awkward hobbyists at an aviation event. Sends a shiver down my spine.
 
Orangecroc said:
The photographer didn't even offer to delete the photos.
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Can not comment on the situation as I was not there but I am interested in the bit of your post I have quoted.

Why do you feel the photographer should have offered to delete the photographs?

If a picture is worth taking in the first place then I can not see a reason to offer to delete it.

In all the time I have been shooting street I have had varying interactions with people, some good some not so good, but never have I felt the need to offer deletion of photographs.
 
Keith W said:
Why do you feel the photographer should have offered to delete the photographs?
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Because the subject of the photograph was upset that her and her son's (a minor) picture was taken, and she expressed those feelings to the photographer. It's just courteous to offer to delete them if it has caused someone to be upset. My friend was also actively turning away from the camera and the photographer moved round and continued taking pictures despite obvious attempts at avoidance.
I am aware that there is no law preventing the taking of pictures in public places, and that there is no need to ask.
 
Keith W said:
Can not comment on the situation as I was not there but I am interested in the bit of your post I have quoted.

Why do you feel the photographer should have offered to delete the photographs?

If a picture is worth taking in the first place then I can not see a reason to offer to delete it.

In all the time I have been shooting street I have had varying interactions with people, some good some not so good, but never have I felt the need to offer deletion of photographs.
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Because good manners are important.
 
But as you well know it is impossible to delete photos (except unintentionally :-( ). Whether her son is a minor or not is irrelevant unless you are considering some contractual arrangement.
Depending where they were, they were likely on CCTV anyway.
 
gad-westy said:
...you only need to spend 5 mins on TP to see very abnormally blunt posts and arguments deriving from the least contentious of issues.
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I use another (non-photography) forum where it wouldn't take five minutes! This place is very dull in comparison.:D

All sorts of people are inconsiderate to people pursuing the same hobby/pastime. Not just photographers. :(
 
sphexx said:
But as you well know it is impossible to delete photos (except unintentionally :-( ). Whether her son is a minor or not is irrelevant unless you are considering some contractual arrangement.
Depending where they were, they were likely on CCTV anyway.
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Deleting photos is not impossible, it's a built in function in all digital cameras.
The point being made is that the photographer was rude and discourteous. If you have clearly upset someone by taking their picture or a picture of their child, it is just good manners to offer to delete a photo, or at least explain the reason you have taken it.
Personally, If the subject of my photograph is upset after I have explained my reason for taking it, in most cases I would delete it if they asked me to. The only real exceptions for me would be if the photograph was evidence of a crime or of someone in the commission of a crime.
 
ukaskew said:
I spent the day at the Royal International Air Tattoo yesterday and was there from 6:30am to 7pm so covered a lot of ground. It was probably the best air display I've seen since the 90s, pretty incredible.

The day was completely faultless in terms of the organisation, but one particular aspect left a bad taste...photographers.

1) Walking past the B-1 Bomber on static, it was early so pretty quiet, me and Dad were heading over to read the tech sheet thing in front of it and look at it close up (it was well roped off). "GET OUT OF THE WAY" came hollering from the distance, and again, and again. We turned around and a good 30 yards back were 10-15 photographers stood on stools pointing their cameras at the B-1. They were remarkably aggressive and wouldn't let up until we had vacated the vast empty space in front of them. I'm always more than happy to detour around people taking photos etc and not intentionally jump in when somebody is clearly trying to shoot something, but for a whole bunch of guys to demand a massive area of tarmac and shoot from a distance, AND be aggressive about it, not on.

2) We were sat at the front of the crowd line for the display, when the Red Arrows were taking off two young lads came up to the front and we made room to let them get at the front to see the take-off. Guy with a huge set up uses that as his opportunity to pretty much elbow past them and take up the space we had quite clearly made for them.

Looking along the crowdline near us there were numerous occasions when photographers at the front would stand up (completely unnecessarily), causing a wave of others to need to stand or move to see things happening lower down (such as the Sea King display). A couple with their two boys a bit further down from us looked pretty fed up with the selfishness of it all.

I won't tar all aviation photographers with the same brush as I'm sure many are perfectly nice, but there were just so many little things throughout the day where I felt ashamed to be photographer. It was a huge contrast to Goodwood FoS two weeks before, which despite being much, much busier in terms of available photo spots was surprisingly civilized.
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I really don't do well with rude people, photographers or otherwise. I would have read the tech sheet and then moved off and they would have just had to wait.
 
Orangecroc said:
Deleting photos is not impossible, it's a built in function in all digital cameras.
.
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OK, my apologies, apparently you don't know that the delete function you refer to does not in fact delete anything.
 
sphexx said:
OK, my apologies, apparently you don't know that the delete function you refer to does not in fact delete anything.
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I'm aware of how digital storage works and the ability to recover "deleted" files. Most people would accept the images being deleted on the camera in this way, there's no need to be pedantic.
 
Orangecroc said:
I'm aware of how digital storage works and the ability to recover "deleted" files. Most people would accept the images being deleted on the camera in this way, there's no need to be pedantic.
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Well I did say "as you well know... . It seems to me to be dishonest to tell people you have deleted a photo when you well know you haven't.
I am well known for being a pedantic but I think accurate would be a kinder description here :-( .
 
In this day and age ignorance and selfishness seems to be rapidly increasing.

Have to say being shouted at in an aggressive manner would have likely resulted in confrontation, very easy to topple off a stool.
 
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sphexx said:
Well I did say "as you well know... . It seems to me to be dishonest to tell people you have deleted a photo when you well know you haven't.
I am well known for being a pedantic but I think accurate would be a kinder description here :-( .
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If I deleted a photo on the camera, it's very unlikely that I would go to the effort of restoring the data afterwards, and I'm sure this would be the case for most other people too.
Anyway, no need to continue debating the ins and outs of data storage.

Most of the situation in my post could have been defused with a simple sincere apology.
 
In this particular situation the good manners, or common sense as I would call it, would have been to recognize that the person is upset & does not want their picture taken and not to continually take multiple images.

I have in the past had people who, once they realised I had taken their picture, made it obvious they did not want their picture taken however I did not offer to delete the image and I certainly do not consider it bad manners on my part not to offer
 
The thing is Ben's example is very different from the OPs, and I don't criticise him for that, I might have posted it myself if it had been me. The OP is first hand and overt rudeness but Ben's is a third party report of some interaction between two people that did not go well. By his account his friend was already upset because her son was unwell so it's very difficult to know what went on.
The only reason I commented was there is a general interest point about 1. Deletions and 2. The odd idea that there is something wrong with photographing children these days, which is something I don't understand but seems to be something do with witchcraft.
 
Keith W said:
In this particular situation the good manners, or common sense as I would call it, would have been to recognize that the person is upset & does not want their picture taken and not to continually take multiple images.

I have in the past had people who, once they realised I had taken their picture, made it obvious they did not want their picture taken however I did not offer to delete the image and I certainly do not consider it bad manners on my part not to offer
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Am I right in saying you have kept photos of people when they objected to having had their picture taken?
Would you delete the photos if asked specifically to do so?

This reminds me when I was at the seaside wandering along the prom with my daughter when she was a toddler. One of those photographers with a suited up monkey was eyeing us up, I politely asked if the creature could swim upon which he left us alone
 
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sphexx said:
The thing is Ben's example is very different from the OPs, and I don't criticise him for that, I might have posted it myself if it had been me. The OP is first hand and overt rudeness but Ben's is a third party report of some interaction between two people that did not go well. By his account his friend was already upset because her son was unwell so it's very difficult to know what went on.
The only reason I commented was there is a general interest point about 1. Deletions and 2. The odd idea that there is something wrong with photographing children these days, which is something I don't understand but seems to be something do with witchcraft.
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It was a different situation, but suited the heading of the post. The societal position on photographing children is far more extreme than is necessary, I agree with you there. But my example was of a parent who did not want her child's photo taken, which in any place or time should be the sole decision of the parent.
 
Orangecroc said:
It was a different situation, but suited the heading of the post. The societal position on photographing children is far more extreme than is necessary, I agree with you there. But my example was of a parent who did not want her child's photo taken, which in any place or time should be the sole decision of the parent.
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Yes, as I said, I might have posted myself if it had happened to me.
 
tijuana taxi said:
Am I right in saying you have kept photos of people when they objected to having had their picture taken?
Would you delete the photos if asked specifically to do so?
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In answer to your first question - Yes

In answer to your second question - No and why should I?
 
Keith W said:
In answer to your first question - Yes

In answer to your second question - No and why should I?
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Common courtesy springs to mind, respecting people's wishes also comes into it.

Be careful, you might pick on the wrong person one day with that sort of attitude,
 
If people don't want to be photographed they should stay at home. I say this because CCTV (and dash cams, helmets s, police body cams, phone cams, drone cams etc) are almost everywhere and only going to get more common.
 
Yeah, did few years at RIAT as a volounteer and all I can say is that some (very few) utter t***s can ruin whole picture of the rest. Stuff like calling us c***s for doing our job was quite common.
 
tijuana taxi said:
Common courtesy springs to mind, respecting people's wishes also comes into it.

Be careful, you might pick on the wrong person one day with that sort of attitude,
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The only person showing an "attitude" here is you

I am courteous and I use my common sense - One a picture is take it is taken, if the person objects after the fact then I move on, I usually have the shot I want anyway, if they ask I delete then the answer is no.

By your input I would guess you do not have much understanding of the genre of street photography
 
Keith W said:
The only person showing an "attitude" here is you

I am courteous and I use my common sense - One a picture is take it is taken, if the person objects after the fact then I move on, I usually have the shot I want anyway, if they ask I delete then the answer is no.

By your input I would guess you do not have much understanding of the genre of street photography
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In my view you are pushing your luck and guess you do not really have much of an understanding of manners or the right to privacy
 
tijuana taxi said:
In my view you are pushing your luck and guess you do not really have much of an understanding of manners or the right to privacy
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I have every understanding of good maners and there is nothing wrong with my manners that you very much.

And as I said you seem to show no understanding of the genre of street photography - There is no right to privacy in a public place
 
Unfortunately it is a sign of the times. As has been said above it applies to all aspects of life. Unfortunately you need to use your own elbows to protect your position but if you are like me this is uncomfortable and a reason I don't go to busy events.

Hopefully none of those photographers are TP members. Perhaps you should ask.
 
Right so that's some aviation and street photographers with no respect for others.

How about some mad b*****d birders, seen them getting a bit lairy and damaging fences when a weird and wonderful bird makes an appearance on our shores.

Then there's the landscape mob who damaged that old geezers yellow car in the Cotswolds, yep some right s***bag photographers about.

Also the downright dangerous steam train lot who wander about on the tracks, Darwinism in action there
 
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Keith W said:
There is no right to privacy in a public place
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It's not the same in every country, worth checking before going on holidays abroad.

Personally I've only been asked to delete once and turned out it was a location where permission was necessary so that was fair enough. More often I've requested by strangers to take their picture!
 
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