2nd homes abroad - who has one?

ancient_mariner

ancient_mariner

Messages
23,525
Name
Toni
Edit My Images
No
Apart from Mr. Bump - I know about his Greek home.

There is presently no benefit to saving money other than ready availability of liquidity, and it's simply losing value in the BSs. We could buy a flat or even house in some parts of the country as a potential investment, but that's dull and I've been wondering about a house in Spain or Italy.

So who owns another home in Europe - has it worked out well for you or is it just a moneypit that's been a headache? Is it just yours or do you let it out?
 
Not in Europe but looking at elsewhere in the world (further East). Mostly because I plan on moving there longer term.

Perhaps not to your tastes or everyone's tastes but happy to provide specifics over PM if you are interested. Not keen on discussing it here :)
 
Thinking about it but as a first home. Parents used to have a house in France which they let for one season but found that the hassle and costs involved weren't worth it so stopped letting it. Assorted local taxes added up but it was apparently still worth keeping as long as it was occupied for at least 3 months of the year.
 
Nod said:
Thinking about it but as a first home. Parents used to have a house in France which they let for one season but found that the hassle and costs involved weren't worth it so stopped letting it. Assorted local taxes added up but it was apparently still worth keeping as long as it was occupied for at least 3 months of the year.
Click to expand...
Thanks Nod. Using 3 months of the year without letting could be difficult, since I very much still have a full time job and will continue to do so for a long time.
 
If you are considering Spain, there is now a 'tourist licence' required before you can let the property. It will need to be inspected etc, the criteria changes from region to region and so does the length of time to obtain, upto 12 months in some cases.

Some areas you just will not get a licence, Barcelona for example, blame Air B&B for that, their model was effectively hurting the hotel industry too much.

We nearly bought shortly befor covid hit, glad we held off now.
 
@ancient_mariner as you say we have the Greek house, for us it will form part of my permanent retirement in 3 years time.
this year am over for a few months getting all the security sorted, new windows doors with roll down shutters etc.

main benefits, so cheep to live here on Crete

no council tax *small charge in your leccy bill
leccy is not cheap though
no gas, we have a propane stove outside
water is cheep, TV licence is included in you water bill?

leaving a property empty while you away has almost zero cost
 
PaulF said:
If you are considering Spain, there is now a 'tourist licence' required before you can let the property. It will need to be inspected etc, the criteria changes from region to region and so does the length of time to obtain, upto 12 months in some cases.
Click to expand...

That's good to know, thank you. It would likely be in Andalucia, probably around Olvera, Ronda, El Saucjo region - somewhere rural, perhaps not more than 60min from the sea would be nice. I saw a wonderful palazzio in Osuna at a bargain price that required someone to 'fall in love' with & restore it - we stayed in a similar place a few years back that was a hotel!

Mr Bump said:
no council tax *small charge in your leccy bill
leccy is not cheap though
no gas, we have a propane stove outside
water is cheep, TV licence is included in you water bill?
Click to expand...

Useful info, thanks.

I have looked a few times at Greek property, but the prices I've *seen* have been much higher than expected. Saw a place in the Mani around 20 years ago that I loved (semi-derelict tower built on a big rock above the sea) but the price was a bit more than the stone built 3 bed cottage in Oxfordshire that we currently live it rather than the 15-20K I'd expected. I did see a couple of places on this search that were of interest, but they were high in the mountains in a remote area. Sure we could get a modern concrete 2 bed house somewhere, but that's not really of interest, and I suspect will eventually require more maintainence to keep good than a 250 year old stone-built house. I'm probably a building snob. ;)

Your place is in Crete, a few miles west of Chania, isn't it? We really like Lesvos, but again, not much there that's both affordablke AND interesting.
 
@ancient_mariner yes in the municipality of platanious (county) prices are high if you look in certain places, you have to look with different eyes i think buying in Greece, firstly the two L's Land and Location. within say 5 kms of the coast the price is way up, move inland and it is much quieter and much cheaper, also inland you will find houses on village land which has masses of building rights. we have a modest single story house on village land of 11,500 sq metres a very large plot. Also if you move away from the main highway prices actually drop, The working Greeks love being near the main highway. Also building an extension is cheap here. Its not like England where a 4ft sq room will cosy you £20k. We have plans next year to build a 15m x5m extension which will be like a day room / home cinema / relax area and with me working with a local builder the total cost should be about 25k euros all in.
 
ancient_mariner said:
Thanks for that - of course proximity to'desirable' features will bump the price.
Click to expand...

yes for sure, but also bear in mind there is almost zero traffic in most of Crete once you are off the main highway, its not uncommon for us to drive 20kms on the old roads and barely come across much at all, most Greeks use the main highway even if they are only going to the next town. also speed limits are very low on minor roads 30kms so its very leisurely moving around our area. the main thing you get used to is having to travel to a big supermarket, its 15kms each way to a large carefour so its once every two weeks.
 
This is for sale down the road a few kms from us at the moment, needs a bit of TLC

www.rightmove.co.uk

Check out this 2 bedroom detached house for sale on Rightmove

2 bedroom detached house for sale in Kolimbari, Chania, Crete, Greece for £118,026. Marketed by Elizabeth Estate Agency, Crete
www.rightmove.co.uk www.rightmove.co.uk

its £125,000 but its currently vacant possession you would get that in the current climate £100,000 with fees all in £112,000
 
Mr Bump said:
This is for sale down the road a few kms from us at the moment, needs a bit of TLC

www.rightmove.co.uk

Check out this 2 bedroom detached house for sale on Rightmove

2 bedroom detached house for sale in Kolimbari, Chania, Crete, Greece for £118,026. Marketed by Elizabeth Estate Agency, Crete
www.rightmove.co.uk www.rightmove.co.uk

its £125,000 but its currently vacant possession you would get that in the current climate £100,000 with fees all in £112,000
Click to expand...

Thanks for that. Had a quick look - seems in good nick (as in could move straight in) but it's a) modern concrete and b) about 1.5-2X the price of something not very different in rural Italy or Spain. I would prefer not to be on an island because overland travel will be difficult (although anywhere in Greece is a darn long way from the UK).

Having said that, the views and general area look nice - the idea of looking out over olive groves has a considerable appeal!
 
Check with current regulations. Last time we were looking at the possibility of buying a doer-upper in Crete, you had to pay the VAT on the expected cost of any works based on a professional doing the work, even if you're planning on doing all the work yourself. Older properties may also not meet current earthquake resistance needs (and they do have 'quakes in Crete.)
 
Nod said:
Check with current regulations. Last time we were looking at the possibility of buying a doer-upper in Crete, you had to pay the VAT on the expected cost of any works based on a professional doing the work, even if you're planning on doing all the work yourself. Older properties may also not meet current earthquake resistance needs (and they do have 'quakes in Crete.)
Click to expand...

Thanks - you have saved me some research.
 
Mr Bump said:
i wouldnt touch stuff like that with a barge pole, fisrstly no land and its in the village and it will be noisy, greeks like to get up very ealry in the vullage not for me.
Click to expand...
Lack of land doesn't bother me so much - guess I'd probably try to go native. [emoji846]
 
ancient_mariner said:
Lack of land doesn't bother me so much - guess I'd probably try to go native. [emoji846]
Click to expand...

there are lots and lots of village houses and if you are a village person you will do well but they are dirt cheap for a reason and that is no one wants them and you will be surrounded by run down and often derelict buildings, most of the houses in some villages have been almost abandoned as young people desert the villages in search of work and higher education. mostly mainland greece and the EU. one of the reasons we chose to buy a house in greece is how anonymous you can be among the landscape, we don't even have a post box at our house we collect our mail from the local post office not that you get much.
 
Mr Bump said:
there are lots and lots of village houses and if you are a village person you will do well but they are dirt cheap for a reason and that is no one wants them and you will be surrounded by run down and often derelict buildings, most of the houses in some villages have been almost abandoned as young people desert the villages in search of work and higher education. mostly mainland greece and the EU. one of the reasons we chose to buy a house in greece is how anonymous you can be among the landscape, we don't even have a post box at our house we collect our mail from the local post office not that you get much.
Click to expand...

That's a fair point - I think it's important to select the location carefully and not just fall in love with a money pit. IF we relocated to Greece at any stage then I would do my best to get involved with the locals, and would want to be where there was an active and thriving community, OR in the countryside as you are (though there are still usually neighbours). But I do understand the desire to 'escape' people too, and if it's your holiday home then being left in peace can be very pleasant.
 
If you plan on spending significant time there (be it Greece or anywhere abroad), learn the language. Some ex-pats seem to be proud of the fact that they can barely say "Good morning" to the locals,
 
Nod said:
If you plan on spending significant time there (be it Greece or anywhere abroad), learn the language. Some ex-pats seem to be proud of the fact that they can barely say "Good morning" to the locals,
Click to expand...

Kalispera.

I HATE the idea of an enclave, drinking watney's red barrel and complaining that the food's so greasy (Mr. Bounder). ;) Yes, I'd learn the language. Frrance would be easier but I don't think it's where we want to be, although my wife is much happier with French.

It's been a real eye-opener looking through all sorts of different homes in different places. The legend of the stylish Italians is very much that - a legend, at least at the lower end of the market. Once or twice I've wanted to cover my eyes. Spent a fair bit of time looking at Spain too, and they do like a fussy decor. Also I've noticed that not everyone appreciates health and safety in the way the British do:
sparkyshower.jpg

:LOL: :exit:

Presently there's a few places that have been structurally made good, new roof etc, but need some fairly serious redecorating, possibly plastering, and that's the kind of stage that I feel comfy getting involved. We have some friends that bought a partial ruin & paid for a builder to repair & reconstruct only for them to completely demolish everything. But there's also a fair number of places we could just buy & most straight in, though they tend to be terraces in towns rather than with a little space around them.
 
First question is. Is there a country you like. I would start there and check prices. Not sure of your situation so the next step is rent a place there for a month or so. See if you like it or would you get fed up and want to see other parts of the world. Next is work out how much it will cost you. Do not look at renting as an answer. You have to look at what it will cost you. Renting has its own problems as well as an extra source of income. Plus there is tax to pay. Hope this helps
 
wave01 said:
First question is. Is there a country you like. I would start there and check prices. Not sure of your situation so the next step is rent a place there for a month or so. See if you like it or would you get fed up and want to see other parts of the world. Next is work out how much it will cost you. Do not look at renting as an answer. You have to look at what it will cost you. Renting has its own problems as well as an extra source of income. Plus there is tax to pay. Hope this helps
Click to expand...

Good thoughts, thank you.

There are a lot of countries I like and would be happy to live in for a while (France, Germany, Austria, Sweden, Spain, Italy, Greece, India, Canada to name a few) though I find trying to communicate with Spanish and Italian speakers nerve-wracking *at first*. Unfortunately I'll not have the opportunity to rent for a month with full-time employment still necessary.

There will ALWAYS be other parts of the world I want to see. :D

This is very much hanging in the balance still, and nothing may come of it, though having said that, I've found some wonderful houses and places, and it's made me realise that next time we're in Italy I must spend more time in different villages.
 
When Mrs Nod retires (or sells the business), we'll probably rent a place for a year to see how we get on with Cretan life year round. We (think we) know roughly where we want to be eventually but until we have a proper go at living there rather than just holidaying, we can't be sure.

(BTW, "Good morning" is "Kalimera;"Kalispera" is "Good afternoon/evening".) :)
 
The problem with posting to an internet forum is that time-appropriate phrases don't automatically update for the reader. Parakalo. ;)

The thing with this is that it's not meant to be a permanent move, but rather an investment in somewhere interesting that *may* give a better return that leaving the money in the bank and should also be enjoyable. We are keeping hold of the house here in Oxfordshire and I shall be continuing in full-time employment, so while the location needs to be somewhere enjoyable, the location doesn't have to be long-term enjoyable. Chances are that by the time I hit 75 we'll have moved to a town where we can shop on mobility scooters. :p

Favourite home at the moment is in the mountains above Kalamata, but I've seen some amazing houses in both Italy and Spain that I'm looking to shortlist & work through. I'm getting a sense of the key things from this:
Location to be no more than an hour from the sea and the mountains.
Some grounds around the property are desirable because Grandchildren may well visit, but not too much unless someone can be found to harvest the olives for us.
An older style of building with character is required (the Italians were still making classic structures in the 1950s & 60s).
Parking is essential.
Renovation is acceptable in terms of plastering & painting, but major structural work is not.

At present Spain is least favourite, not least because it's already rammed with English speakers, but also because most of the affordable houses are ugly, compacted concrete structures squashed together tightly, with just a small paved area behind for a garden and fussy interiors. However there are some exceptions to this, and I wish we had half a million quid to sink into this place in Osuna (FWIW we quite liked Osuna when we stayed there a few years back):
View: https://youtu.be/JlCzgyiyuWM


Italy is highly favoured because the areas we're looking are fertile, green and pleasant, the sea soft and it all just feels more relaxed and less regulated. And the houses offer the greatest variety with the best views for the lowest prices.

Greece is mixed for us, because prices are higher and the country feels more anarchistic, unruly, unstable, as well as the people having been hammered by austerity. Where we stayed a few weeks ago, it was normal for cars to travel through the towns at twice or more the 50/60kph speed limit in a way that really was reckless (though I did like driving through Athens, where everyone just got on with it instead of dithering about). We love Greece as tourists, and the mountain location would insulate from some of those issues, but I'm not *certain* of the complete honesty of everyone we might have to deal with (that applies to Italy as well).

I've now got another enjoyable evening, going through the details of about 30 properties, pros & cons, to shortlist down to 10 or less. :)
 
Last edited:
Bought a villa in Spain about 13 years ago as a holiday home, moved out there soon after and rented out our house here. While living there we bought a small end of terrace 1 bedroom house to rent out but ended up coming back due to our sons special needs. Sold the villa a few years ago but have kept the 1 bed for when we fancy a bit of time away.

Upkeep is peanuts compared to here.
 
Thanks Mike, that's good to hear, though I'm sorry for what was likely a difficult time for your son. One of the challenges may be, if we do find somewhere but don't live there much, getting the right people to help look after the place while it's empty or having guests visit.
 
ancient_mariner said:
The problem with posting to an internet forum is that time-appropriate phrases don't automatically update for the reader. Parakalo. ;)
Click to expand...


Signomi! Didn't spot the post timing.

Greek driving is ... interesting! Not seen an accident actually happen (yet!) but seen a few beside the road. Some years back. there were a couple of mangled wrecks on scaffolding beside the "motorway" with warning notices. Quite a few wrecks half way down hillsides too; I suppose that once the casualties are removed, the wreck stays until it rots away (or useful spares are liberated!)
 
Found a house on Lesvos that's 'ideal' as in big enough, garden, nice nick, right area, interesting. The thing is that travel is not easy - may be direct flights in high season, but otherwise it's expensive to travel and slow too.

Bums.

And they're under UK quarantine. And there's the refugee issue.
 
ancient_mariner said:
Found a house on Lesvos that's 'ideal' as in big enough, garden, nice nick, right area, interesting. The thing is that travel is not easy - may be direct flights in high season, but otherwise it's expensive to travel and slow too.

Bums.

And they're under UK quarantine. And there's the refugee issue.
Click to expand...

yep we didn't even consider Lesbos when we were looking way to many issues.

Main reasons we chose Crete were good transport back into EU and UK from Chania, worst case is hop on a local plane to Athens then to UK, also there is good ferry from crete back to mainland Greece if you really need to get back quick even in off peak as it brings huge amounts of freight.

to be honest there are quite a few islands you can get cheap houses in good repair which i think seems to be your main angle as a possible investment.
we chose where we bought on crete mainly for stability, large island almost a small country, far from mainland just for my own personal reasons on safety, its the hottest of the Greek islands, in Winter it rarely dips below 10 deg c at night and up to 15 deg c at day, also it has a nice low crime rate :)
 
Mr Bump said:
Main reasons we chose Crete were good transport back into EU and UK from Chania, worst case is hop on a local plane to Athens then to UK, also there is good ferry from crete back to mainland Greece if you really need to get back quick even in off peak
Click to expand...

Same as Lesvos as it happens - direct flights in high season, otherwise change at Athens for Agaean or get the ferry, but IIRC Crete has at least some flights all year round.

Having talked it over, a key part of the attraction of Lesvos *for us* was specific people, and we'd have much less to do with them if we lived in our own house there. We loved the island and the lack of tourists/authentic sense of Greece, but travel is less convenient & more costly than flying to Seville or Ancona.

Italy is still favourite right now, though there are a few places in Spain, mainland Greece & Austria that also look good. Or it may come to nothing - we have enough hassle right now sorting out the repairs after our flood.
 
Did you take this further?
Just booked my return from Crete in a week,
 
We're still at the stage of deciding whether this is a good idea, although IF we buy a house somewhere it's most likely going to be in Italy (Marche or Abruzzo regions) for a host of reasons, but mostly based around ease of transport, price, environment and culture. France and Spain are also both possible, and there's just the one house in Greece that we really like. Language is a challenge where ever we go, though my wife would definitely find France easiest, Greece most difficult.
 
Could I throw another consideration into the cogitations - health care

For some years my husband and I had been contemplating retiring abroad - to the North of Portugal where we had camped for some years. We were accepted by the locals and my husband was almost fluent in Portuguese

When we heard that one of our friends had appendicitis one weekend and despite the town having a modern , pretty large hospital , she had to be flown to Porto as there was no surgical cover at weekends !! That changed our minds pretty quickly
 
camerassassin said:
When we heard that one of our friends had appendicitis one weekend and despite the town having a modern , pretty large hospital , she had to be flown to Porto as there was no surgical cover at weekends !! That changed our minds pretty quickly
Click to expand...

Living in a country with a high population density has some very distinct - if invisible - benfits sometimes. Good point, well made. I *think* Italy is a bit better than that (worth checking) and I was intrigued around 10 years ago by a Greek prof I met who had returned to Lesvos to make use of the Greek healthcare system because it was better than that available in the US (according to them - there may have been financial reasons too).
 
Have you consider Cyprus. We have an apartment there for 12 years now and usually spend 3 to 4 months a year there but haven't been for a year now because of the pandemic. They drive on the 'correct' side of the road, most locals are friendly and can speak English. My advice would be once you decided the location you like is to rent a property and stay there for a few months to see how you like it.
 
rpn said:
Have you consider Cyprus. We have an apartment there for 12 years now and usually spend 3 to 4 months a year there but haven't been for a year now because of the pandemic. They drive on the 'correct' side of the road, most locals are friendly and can speak English. My advice would be once you decided the location you like is to rent a property and stay there for a few months to see how you like it.
Click to expand...

Sorry Stan, thought I'd replied to you. Cyprus isn't on our destination list: too far, too much tension, plus some friends with a property there had a lot of trouble with locals.
 
Mr Bump said:
Did you take this further?
Just booked my return from Crete in a week,
Click to expand...

OK, we've shortlisted. A question for those who have/had property in Greece: how is the beaurocracy? Is it like the UK, where you just pay your fees & it eventually happens, or is it 'difficult' requiring lubrication and unexpected hoops to jump through? Did you just hand everything over to a law firm & get them to deal with it? I've read some bits & peices about house purchase, but real, practical experience is good to hear.

The Mani house is still near the top of the list, and IF we do it then we'll need to start things rolling fairly soon.
 
ancient_mariner said:
OK, we've shortlisted. A question for those who have/had property in Greece: how is the beaurocracy? Is it like the UK, where you just pay your fees & it eventually happens, or is it 'difficult' requiring lubrication and unexpected hoops to jump through? Did you just hand everything over to a law firm & get them to deal with it? I've read some bits & peices about house purchase, but real, practical experience is good to hear.

The Mani house is still near the top of the list, and IF we do it then we'll need to start things rolling fairly soon.
Click to expand...

its pretty grim but not to difficult, you have to be prepared for manual paperwork and you will need a local fixer to help with some of the odd tasks,
dealing with the local municipal council for instance, again not difficult just slow, also offices close early, my local one is all done by 11am despite it should be open till 2pm.

to buy the house itself pretty basic stuff if i remember, a greek social security number is your first call and also a greek bank account.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top